#11546 min
E aí, combatentes de fraude, bem-vindos de volta ao Fraud Forward!
Este episódio é um pouco diferente e, para ser sincero, muito divertido. Gravamos este aqui ao vivo, diretamente da conferência da ACFE, enquanto jogávamos uma partida de Uno. E se você já trabalhou com fraude por tempo suficiente, já sabe por que isso parecia o cenário perfeito. Justo quando você acha que entendeu tudo, alguém joga uma carta de reverso, as regras mudam e, de repente, você está resolvendo um problema completamente diferente.
Juntam-se a mim três líderes incríveis na área de fraude: Karen Boyer, Steve Lenderman e Jen Lamont. O que começa como um jogo descontraído rapidamente se transforma em uma conversa franca sobre algumas das maiores questões que as equipes de fraude enfrentam hoje. Desde fraudes com IA agente e fraude de identidade sintética até liderança em fraude, desenvolvimento de analistas, prevenção de golpes e os contextos em que a expertise humana ainda é mais importante.
Uma coisa que adorei nessa conversa é que não havia roteiro. Eram apenas profissionais compartilhando opiniões sinceras sobre o que está mudando, o que está supervalorizado e o que eles acreditam que vai definir a próxima geração de prevenção a fraudes.
O que você vai ouvir neste episódio:
- Por que a fraude com IA agente pode remodelar o futuro da fraude de identidade sintética
- Os riscos crescentes em torno da fraude com agentes sintéticos e identidades digitais autônomas
- Por que a IA com humanos na cadeia de decisão continua sendo crucial para a prevenção de fraudes
- Se a IA deve investigar alertas ou focar na automação de SAR
- O papel futuro dos analistas de fraude em um setor impulsionado por IA
- Por que a fraude com cheques continua a frustrar os profissionais de prevenção a fraudes
- O valor do networking, da mentoria e da colaboração na indústria
Você deve ouvir este episódio se você:
- Lidera uma equipe de prevenção a fraudes, investigações, riscos ou crimes financeiros e quer ouvir como outros profissionais estão pensando sobre fraudes com IA agente e o futuro do setor.
- Estão explorando como a IA em fraudes, a detecção de fraudes por aprendizado de máquina e a automação da detecção de fraudes podem melhorar as operações sem perder o valor da expertise humana.
- Querem uma discussão prática sobre fraude de identidade sintética, fraude com agentes sintéticos e as próximas gerações de ameaças de fraude para as quais as instituições financeiras devem se preparar.
- Estão avaliando onde a IA com humano no loop, a triagem de alertas de fraude com IA, a redação de SARs com IA e a automação de SARs se encaixam no seu programa de prevenção a fraudes — e em quais pontos o julgamento humano deve continuar no centro.
- Aproveite conversas francas entre profissionais experientes em fraude sobre liderança, desenvolvimento de analistas, educação em fraude e os desafios reais que moldam a prevenção moderna de fraudes.
Notas do episódio
A fraude com IA agente está mudando a conversa
Um dos momentos mais interessantes da discussão acontece quando Steve fala sobre a próxima evolução da fraude de identidade sintética. Em vez de se concentrar apenas em identidades falsas, ele apresenta a ideia de agentes sintéticos: entidades movidas por IA, capazes de executar ações em nome dessas identidades.
Isso leva a conversa para além da detecção tradicional de fraudes.
À medida que as fraudes com IA agente se tornam mais sofisticadas, as equipes de combate a fraudes precisarão entender não apenas se uma identidade é legítima, mas também se sistemas de IA autônomos estão interagindo com instituições financeiras de maneiras cada vez mais humanas.
Esta é uma das ameaças de fraude de próxima geração para as quais os profissionais da área devem começar a se preparar agora.
A presença humana no ciclo da IA continua sendo essencial
Embora a IA domine grande parte da conversa atual sobre fraudes, ninguém à mesa defende que a tecnologia substitui as pessoas.
Em vez disso, a discussão volta repetidamente à IA com humanos no circuito.
A detecção de fraudes com aprendizado de máquina continua a aprimorar as operações de combate à fraude ao identificar padrões, priorizar alertas e apoiar investigações. Mas analistas de fraude experientes continuam sendo essenciais para fornecer contexto, julgamento e compreensão do comportamento do cliente que os modelos, sozinhos, não conseguem explicar.
O painel apresenta um argumento convincente de que o futuro não é IA contra analistas de fraude.
É a IA trabalhando ao lado dos analistas de fraude.
A IA deve eliminar o trabalho repetitivo, não o pensamento crítico
Outro tema recorrente gira em torno de onde a IA gera mais valor.
Quando questionados se a IA deve investigar alertas de fraude ou redigir Relatórios de Atividade Suspeita, o consenso é claro: deixe que a IA cuide da documentação repetitiva.
A redação de RAS por IA e a automação de RAS liberam os investigadores do trabalho administrativo, permitindo que os analistas se concentrem em investigações complexas e na proteção dos clientes.
Essa distinção é importante porque a dependência excessiva de IA em casos de fraude pode introduzir novos riscos operacionais se as organizações começarem a terceirizar o julgamento investigativo em vez de apenas processos repetitivos.
A liderança em fraudes começa com melhores perguntas
Alguns dos melhores momentos não têm nada a ver com tecnologia.
As perguntas de "Você Preferiria" estimulam conversas sobre equipe, apoio da diretoria, educação dos clientes e sobre como é, na prática, uma liderança bem-sucedida em prevenção a fraudes.
O painel discute:
- Por que os executivos precisam ter uma compreensão melhor do risco de fraude.
- Por que os analistas de fraude da linha de frente muitas vezes fornecem os primeiros sinais.
- Por que uma equipe ilimitada pode ser mais valiosa do que tecnologia ilimitada.
- Por que a prevenção depende da colaboração e não de ferramentas individuais.
Essas conversas destacam que as decisões de liderança muitas vezes têm um impacto maior nos resultados de fraude do que qualquer investimento isolado em tecnologia.
A prevenção de fraudes continua sendo um negócio de pessoas
Talvez a principal conclusão desta discussão ao vivo seja que a fraude sempre foi e continua sendo um problema humano.
Seja o tema fraude de identidade sintética, fraude com cheques, uso de IA em fraudes ou desenvolvimento de analistas de fraude, toda conversa acaba, em última análise, voltando às pessoas.
A tecnologia continuará evoluindo.
As táticas de fraude continuarão mudando.
Mas investigadores experientes, analistas curiosos, líderes colaborativos e comunidades profissionais sólidas continuam sendo a base de uma prevenção eficaz a fraudes.
Principais pontos
- A IA deve complementar os analistas, não substituí-los.
- A fraude com IA agente introduz desafios totalmente novos relacionados a identidades sintéticas e atividade digital autônoma.
- A liderança é tão importante quanto a tecnologia na construção de programas de combate à fraude resilientes.
- A prevenção é bem-sucedida quando pessoas, processos e tecnologia evoluem juntos.
Conclusão final
A fraude está evoluindo mais rápido do que nunca.
A inteligência artificial está mudando tanto a forma como os fraudadores atuam quanto a maneira como as instituições financeiras respondem. Ao mesmo tempo, as equipes de prevenção à fraude estão equilibrando automação e julgamento humano, investindo em detecção de fraude com aprendizado de máquina e garantindo que analistas experientes continuem no centro das decisões críticas.
Esta conversa reforça algo em que acredito profundamente: a tecnologia deve tornar os profissionais de fraude melhores, não substituí-los. Os programas de prevenção à fraude mais fortes combinam inovação com experiência operacional, curiosidade e colaboração.
Recursos e links do episódio:
Conecte-se com Karen Boyer CFE, CFCI, CCCI | LinkedIn
SVP, Diretora de Inteligência de Fraudes no M&T Bank
Criador de “Fraude é o Novo Atrito; Prevenção à Fraude é o Novo Atendimento ao Cliente”
Conecte-se com Jen Lamont, CFE, CBSAP | LinkedIn
Estrategista de Fraude na Point Predictive
Conecte-se com Steve Lenderman, CFE, CFCI | LinkedIn
Chefe de Prevenção de Fraudes
Especialista em Fraude Sintética e Palestrante Especializado em Fraudes
Conecte-se com Hailey Windham, CFCS | LinkedIn
Apresentador do podcast Fraud Forward
Líder da Comunidade Bancária na Sardine
Especialista Certificado em Crimes Financeiros (CFCS)
Rockstar de Cooperativa de Crédito 2023, Revista CU
Prêmio de Melhoria Contínua, SAFE Federal Credit Union, 2023
Top 20 Profissionais com Menos de 40 Anos, The Sumter Item, 2022
Guests
Episode transcript
Hailey Windham
00:05
So, what is up, Fraud Fighters? We are gonna do something a little different today, a little fun. Usually on Fraud Forward, obviously we sit behind microphones and we talk. We have a conversation about, you know, strategy or whatever else. But today we're going to sit around the table and we're going to play some Uno. You know, because if you worked in fraud long enough, you know that every day feels like a little game. Just when you think you've got it all figured out or a winning hand, someone drops a damn draw four, and then it starts back up and ruins your whole day. So I am here with three of my favorite fraud fighters. So we've got Karen Boyer, we've got Steve Lenderman, and Jen Lamont.
Jen Lamont
00:42
Hello.
Hailey Windham
00:43
And I am so excited. So it started. It landed on a Uno reverse. So I don't really know what we're gonna do with that one.
Karen Boyer
00:49
Dealer gets goodies.
Hailey Windham
00:50
Dealer gets goodies. Okay. So Jen, that's
Karen Boyer
00:54
No, no, no! You get goodies, so you keep it, and then
Jen Lamont
00:58
Why do I get the card?
Hailey Windham
01:00
Oh, nice! That’s a good card, you should keep that. Steve Lenderman (1`:02) This is a dynamic rule set. It's gonna change.
Jen Lamont
01:05
Yeah, with these two, yeah.
Hailey Windham
01:09
Okay, so our color is yellow. Jen, you can start, and then we're gonna go, obviously, that way. But with the theme being yellow, we'll talk to leadership right now. Ooh, Karen, draw two. That you know what we do with draw twos? Draw two means I do that in my normal game. But apparently Uno says we're not allowed to put draw twos on top of draw twos.
Karen Boyer
01:27
Who says that?
Hailey Windham
01:28
Uno.
Karen Boyer
01:29
That they changed the rules.
Hailey Windham
01:30
That's what I said. Because I keep it going. You can draw eight. Just keep going.
Steve Lenderman
01:34
Why don’t you ask a guy what we can’t do in Uno.
Hailey Windham
01:36
Right. Uno. Can we play that? I mean,
Karen Boyer
01:39
So what am I supposed to do? Do I have to draw two right here?
Hailey Windham
01:39
Um, we're gonna do,
Steve Lenderman
01:41
I'll just take the four and change this up. As the only married guy here, I'm just gonna take the cards and move on.
Hailey Windham
01:49
We appreciate you, more more than you know. Yeah, absolutely. And taking one for the team. So I'll do a would you rather question since we did draw fours. Would you rather have a perfect fraud prevention or perfect scam prevention?
Karen Boyer
02:02
Oh me?
Hailey Windham
02:03
Anyone
Karen Boyer
02:04
Oh okay. Well, every, are we supposed to like play during this? Because I'm gonna get long winded.
Hailey Windham
02:09
Go ahead. We're playing. We know that. Give you a scam and put a five.
Karen Boyer
02:16
I, this is too much for me together. I don't care for when people separate fraud and scams.
Jen Lamont
02:25
Oh, I love that answer.
Karen Boyer
02:26
I think that scams are fraud. Like if somebody says, "Oh, that was fraud, you're like, "That's not fraud. That's a scam. Like, what? That's insane. So,
Steve Lenderman
02:33
I agree. Scams are fraud. It's the same strategy.
Hailey Windham
02:38
Okay, I can agree with that. So we're on blue now. AI and tech, Steve. What do you think? What do you think is the best fraud tool? And we don't have to have names, but what does the tool do? Although, I mean, if you want to drop some names, I don't know.
Steve Lenderman
02:51
I don’t know. It feels ironic. Fraud tech came up, so listen. We always talk about AI. AI, AI, AI. Like I think it's part of our solution, but I think a lot of us are depending too much on it, and and that's going to be a crutch that we're going to come across here. Is that we're going to forget that fraud is still single fraud, but AI is helping us enable it, scale it. But it, we have to understand we just can't do the same thing in our space as well, right? You got to really understand there is a human in the loop. Can't forget that.
Hailey Windham
03:19
Love that. Love that.
Karen Boyer
03:20
Can I touch on that?
Hailey Windham
03:21
Yeah,
Jen Lamont
03:21
Please do.
Karen Boyer
03:22
I think that it's also comical that others outside of the fraud industry think that AI is new. We've been using AI. I mean, there's a Falcon model that was like built out in the '90s.
Steve Lenderman
03:36
Actually, our presentation yesterday, the first AI turn was 1956. Technically, AI was developed in 1701 by a mathematician, which AI is just the ability to predict. So the concept of of statistics, palatability, essentially was the birthplace of AI. Just they had no machinery or technology to actually do what we do with it today. I was quite impressed with that.
Jen Lamont
04:01
So 1956?
Steven Lenderman
04:02
1956 was when AI was, our term was, coined.
Jen Lamont
04:06
That's interesting. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have thought that. I mean, I wouldn't have been shocked at like the 70s or 80s, but 56 seems pretty,
Steve Lenderman
04:11
If you use if you use Falcon, Falcon was also a version of AI that meant
Jen Lamont
04:15
That was my first job, was working Falcon Reports.
Hailey Windham
04:16
Mine too.
Karen Boyer
04:18
Did you just quote Falcon?
Hailey Windham
04:20
No, you got skipped.
Steve Lenderman
04:21
Thank God. I already took four cards. I was going to take four more cards. Like,
Hailey Windham
04:27
But since Karen was skipped, the question I have for us, skip is, what's one topic that we need to skip that is overhyped?
Karen Boyer
04:35
AI. And it is new.
Hailey Windham
04:38
Jen, what do you think?
Jen Lamont
04:39
A topic that we need to skip?
Karen Boyer
04:42
Can I do this? Or, I mean, I feel like I can. That I early 2000.
Hailey Windham
04:48
Do you know you could do that? But I hear you.
Steve Lenderman
04:52
I'll fire it out there. Check fraud. I'm tired of hearing. We had this. We saw the solution to check fraud. It’s just that we're too stubborn as consumers to solve the problem.
Karen Boyer
05:00
I don't think it's consumers. I think it's a postal issue.
Steve Lenderman
05:04
Perhaps. But they're over there, so be careful.
Karen Boyer
05:07
Well, I didn't mean like like. But it's. I'm not blaming people. If mail theft is, is,
Hailey Windham
05:17
I yeah I don't want to do, I don't want to do away with check payments. I think it's still,
Steve Lenderman
05:21
The rest of the world has. We're the only civilized country,
Karen Boyer
05:24
Yeah, but what if we spell it with a Q?
Steve Lenderman
05:26
Oh that’s different, but yes,
Karen Boyer
05:28
I mean that's
Steve Lenderman
05:29
Or my favorite, we put a check in an envelope that says “payment enclosed”. That’s my own,
Jen Lamont
05:32
Oh, that's
Hailey Windham
05:33
Like whenever you can read it, and the top it says "pay to the order of, and it's like, geez.
Karen Boyer
05:36
My favorite is when we tell people don't use checks, use bill pay. And then they don't realize that 90% of the checks that they bill pay,
Jen Lamont
05:44
Are manual checks.
Steve Lamont
05:46
In an enclosed envelope.
Karen Boyer
05:47
Yes
Jen Lamont
05:48
Yes
Steve Lenderman
05:50
Not sorted in the mail. But, oh, my turn again.
Jen Lamont
05:52
I have no idea what's going on. I have a really hard time playing cards and talking. And, oh, I’m very challenged.
Steve Lenderman
05:59
Sorry, we’re recording a podcast. Hold on a second. We’re actually playing Uno. We’re trying to like be fun. I'll catch him in a second, Cory. Sorry.
Hailey Windham
06:06
You could have talked.
Steve Lenderman
06:07
That's Corey from Barbados. He's a super cool guy.
Jen Lamont
06:09
Oh nice.
Hailey Windham
06:10
Very cool. We’ll have to bring him back on.
Steve Lenderman
06:11
And they leave for a presentation in Barbados in September.
Jen Lamont
06:13
Oh, that sounds ruff Steve.
Steve Lenderman
06:15
That sounds really terrible, but I'm gonna make it happen.
Hailey Windham
06:18
Okay, so the next question, since we're in yellow, is leadership. Jen, what's the best advice you ever got?
Jen Lamont
06:23
Sometimes taking things away, which feels hard to do, is actually saving them from themselves. So when I learned that saying no to a member, oh, you son of a! Oh, hey, look at that! Reverse back to you.
Hailey Windham
06:37
Put that other one on top of that.
Jen Lamont
06:38
Oh yeah.
Steve Lenderman
06:40
So which way is that?
Hailey Windham
06:41
It's still just to.
Karen Boyer
06:42
No, I think it reverses back.
Hailey Windham
06:44
Did you put it on the same time? Reverse, reverse.
Karen Boyer
06:46
Like isn't there like that? Reverse, reverse. Like what is it? Cupid Shuffle or something.
Hailey Windham
06:50
Yeah, Cupid Shuffle.
Jen Lamont
06:51
So in the credit, in the credit union world, saying no to somebody is is something that's very challenging for us. And I remember having a really hard time limiting somebody's services. And feeling like I was a detriment to their day to day life. And when somebody stopped and explained it to me, that actually you know,
Hailey Windham
07:12
By the way, that draw, you have to draw a couple
Jen Lamont
07:13
How many do I have to draw for now? I can't play cards and talk fraud. How about two? Is that okay? Sure. We have no idea what we're doing.
Hailey Windham
07:21
Sure, but it is your turn.
Jen Lamont
07:22
But that was the best. And you can't win them all. You know, there's always going to be something that slips through the cracks. There's always going to be somebody upset. And maybe, you know, what they're upset about is something that you either have no control over, or maybe they're upset for good reason. But you don't always have to solve it or fix it. Sometimes it is just what it is, and you just do the best you can and try to help as many people as possible.
Hailey Windham
07:44
I love that. How about you, Steve?
Steve Lenderman
07:45
Back to me. Or,
Hailey Windham
07:47
Yeah, I know. Just anyway. Yeah, no, it’s Jen’s turn.
Jen Lamont
07:49
I have no idea what's happening.
Steve Lenderman
07:52
She’s picking up cards.
Jen Lamont
07:53
Well, I have been.
Steve Lenderman
07:55
She’s collecting all 37. Alright So, it’s still on leadership, right?
Hailey Windham
08:00
Yeah. But it’s not your turn.
Steve Lenderman
08:01
Oh God, darn it.
Hailey Windham
08:02
But you can draw four, and the color is green. So, since we draw four, I'll do another. Would you rather? Would you rather eliminate? No, no, no. I don't want that. Would you rather have one hour with every CEO or one hour with every fraud analyst?
Karen Boyer
08:21
A CDO?
Hailey Windham
08:22
CEO
Karen Boyer
08:23
Oh, CEO.
Steve Lenderman
08:26
Fraud analyst. They're the front lines.
Jen Lamont
08:29
They're seeing everything, right?
Steve Lenderman
08:30
That’s where I want to be. And try to stay there on a regular basis. We do have meetings with the CEO. I'm fortunate in a small organization. I do have FaceTime with the CEO once a month, so that that's helpful. But I could see, obviously, in Karen's world, you're not meeting the CEO, and if you are, it's probably not a good scenario.
Karen Boyer
08:46
Oh, I've actually had a nice lunch with him one time. Oh, but it was with a group. I was going to say like fraud analyst, unless I just. I feel like, if obviously, if I was to meet with the CEO, it would be to try to explain yes the benefits and the and how fraud could be a business enabler when done correctly. And kind of reduce the negative connotation that like fraud and you, as we know, friction
Jen Lamont
09:21
We’re the naysayers all the time.
Karen Boyer
09:22
Right. Is it my turn?
Jen Lamont
09:24
Yeah
Hailey Windham
09:24
Yeah
Steve Lenderman
09:25
Has been for like 20 minutes.
Karen Boyer
09:26
Oh, that's not a zero. Got it. All right. Well, sorry.
Jen Lamont
09:29
I know it was a would you rather, but I think that there is a benefit to both. So like Karen said, you know, making sure that the CEO is apprised of what's going on. And I think the human impact of fraud and scams on the member base is really, really important. But also, the fraud analysts are who are seeing those things in real time every day. So it's really important to have face time with both. [Ad Break (9:58) Finally, I'm so happy to share with you all that the Saturday Fraud Strategist is a podcast. What? Yeah, on top of my weekly newsletter, you could now listen to and watch me talk about my and hopefully your favorite topic, fraud strategy. And from time to time, I'll be hosting operators and founders to discuss where the industry is headed and what we fraud fighters should pay attention to. I must say, I'm super excited, and if I'm being honest, a bit nervous about all of this. I've been debating with myself whether to start a podcast for ages, kept putting it off, but now this is the result. So I guess there's no turning back. So if you want to join me for the ride, head over to Sardinia's website and subscribe now. Are you ready? Am I ready? We'll find out next Saturday.]
Hailey Windham
10:57
Yeah. So we skipped again. So we already talked about the one thing that's overhyped.
Steve Lenderman
11:02
Overshot.
Hailey Windham
11:03
Would you? Ah, she, well okay then. So Karen is the ultimate winner of Uno for right now. But that doesn't mean that you will remain that champion.
Karen Boyer
11:14
So if we play again. I will.
Hailey Windham
11:15
Would you would you rather have unlimited budget or unlimited staffing?
Karen Boyer
11:22
Well, I mean, budget.
Steve Lenderman
11:23
With budget, I can get all the staff I want.
Karen Boyer
11:26
Well, yeah. With budget. So budget could be staffing?
Hailey Windham
11:30
Do you budget for your staff?
Steve Lenderman
11:31
Maybe an unlimited budget for an unlimited time. I don’t know.
Hailey Windham
11:34
Yeah. The one question that I also have in here is like, would you rather have an extra hour a day, or to do what you got to get done, or an extra analyst?
Karen Boyer
11:47
An analyst, because I need a lot more than an hour. And I don't really want an extra. If I want an extra hour, I I hope that I could use it for
Steve Lenderman
11:59
Personal stuff.
Karen Boyer
12:00
Yeah.
Steve Lenderman
12:00
Outside of work.
Karen Boyer
12:01
And that doesn’t,
Hailey Windham
12:02
No, I agree. I agree. Okay, let's see. Would you rather have every customer listen to fraud education or every executive understand fraud risk?
Karen Boyer
12:11
Executive, I'm sorry, customers.
Hailey Windham
12:12
Yeah
Karen Boyer
12:13
Because if you convince the executives, then you could convince them for their customers.
Jen Lamont
12:17
Yeah, the education then comes after.
Karen Boyer
12:19
And influence and invest in that.
Hailey Windham
12:21
Yeah
Jen Lamont
12:22
Yeah
Steve Lenderman
12:23
Education has impact, but it's minimal, right? If it worked, we wouldn't still have fraud, right? And we all have had customers who have been frauded once. Receive the education, and continue the same activity, right? So, I’m not saying we should get rid of education. We should understand that it is a small piece of the puzzle.
Karen Boyer
12:43
And you really have to do the education and like, deep dive of the exact examples before anything happens. If you, the customer, the problem is the scam is like, customers don't think they're being scammed. So you can educate them about scams. They're like, "Well, that's not me.
Jen Lamont
12:58
That's where the limiting, that’s where the limited services. And, you know, helping individuals understand that you’re not doing it to punish them. You're doing it to save them.
Karen Boyer
13:06
Yeah, yes.
Hailey Windham
13:07
I agree with that. Yup. Okay. Um, I kind of like the "Would you rather" questions. It seems to kind of get us really talking. Would you rather, this is specifically for Steve, would you rather fight check fraud for the rest of your life, or or fight synthetic identity fraud?
Steve Lenderman
13:27
Whoa, that's a good one. So, I think I'd rather fight synthetic identity fraud because at least that stuff, the thrill of the hunt and the challenge. And it's evolved dramatically over the last 20 years and will continue to evolve in the next 20 years. And while check fraud has been enhanced with you know some of the printing and AI and technology. It's still, it's basic. It's still the same format. It's still check fraud, right? The concept hasn't changed. It's counterfeit washed, right? Double presented. It's the same stuff that would have isolated. Synthetic is it has changed, and will continue to change. And one thing the next evolution of synthetics that we're I'm looking at right now is, you know, synthetic agents. We talk about agentic AI, now. And are creating a matching agent that makes my synthetic identity almost life, right? So
Karen Boyer
14:15
For hypothetical synthetic agents?
Steve Lenderman
14:16
Or I don't, potentially I may have three of them. Yes, but now I have an agent who's doing the work of some machine learning I built before and some code. So now I have an agent who's doing things, boosting, reading, checking emails, all those fun things. Right. So that's the next part. Like, okay, now we have identity. Okay, great, but now we have a matching agent that looks and appears lively.
Karen Boyer
14:41
So you're excited to facilitate the fraud that the fraudsters are,
Steve Lenderman
14:48
So I've always said this
Hailey Windham
14:49
For educational purposes
Steve Lenderman
14:50
Correct. For educational purposes. And I think to understand the fraud, I'm not saying you have to commit it. But you have to be involved in it in some way, shape, or form.
Jen Lamomt
14:59
Like 100 percent
Steve Lenderman
15:02
Oh, we're playing again? I just picked up the cards. I go like, oh, what are we doing here?
Karen Boyer
15:05
Oh, wait, no. I'm not playing because then I'm undefeated.
Steve Lenderman
15:06
She’s one of those.
Hailey Windham
15:08
Yeah, no, no, no. Come on Karen.
Jen Lamont
15:10
I'm really grateful for the many years that I spent, staff level. Just because I was infiltrated in all of those member conversations, and I feel like it taught me so much. Having those conversations every single day for so many years.
Karen Boyer
15:22
Oh yeah.
Jen Lamont
15:23
Very beneficial.
Hailey Windham
15:25
I can agree. Okay, Karen. Would you rather have perfect authentication or perfect transaction monitoring? And please play a card gal because we're waiting on you to start the game. Okay. Back to you Karen.
Karen Boyer
15:40
I would, so I was, oh it is okay.
Jen Lamont
15:43
I know we cannot talk and play.
Steve Lenderman
15:45
I got skipped again. Or it was a reverse. I'm just going to sit over here and look pretty.
Karen Boyer
15:48
Wait, did the reverse work?
Hailey Windham
15:50
Yeah. Karen Boyer(15:51) Which way are we going?
Hailey Windham
15:52
We're going this way now.
Karen Boyer
15:53
Now we’re going this way?
Hailey Windham
15:54
And I’m just waiting on, now nope. Now we're going back that way.
Jen Lamont
15:55
Oh, jeez.
Hailey Windham
15:58
So perfect authentication.
Karen Boyer
16:00
So perfect authentication. Perfect authentication, because if you can verify whoever is doing the transaction. And in theory, one you eliminate, again perfect meaning it’s actually working. You could eliminate account takeover to an extent. You eliminate impersonations to an extent. And then you're left with first party fraud. And if you can verify that they are who they are, then unless they're synthetic, then you can understand who you're targeting, who the true suspects are.
Jen Lamont
16:29
Yeah, at least reduce a lot of it.
Karen Boyer
16:31
Correct.
Jen Lamont
16:34
And then you have more resources to focus on what you weren't able to reduce.
Karen Boyer
16:40
Correct.
Hailey Windham
16:42
Okay, so Jen.
Karen Boyer
16:43
I'm familiar with the concept of more resources.
Hailey Windham
16:46
Yeah. Okay. Jen, from the practitioner side, and Karen, that's still back to you. Would you rather catch fraud before the payment leaves or recover every dollar?
Jen Lamont
16:56
Oh, okay. I definitely want to stop it before it ever leaves. Because the recovery portion takes a lot of time, effort, resources. And it's, although you're asking me if I were to be able to recover all of it. I've been in that situation where I've recovered all of it, and it's taken me a lot of time. And a lot of resources. And indemnification agreements. And breach of warranty claims. And begging and pleading, and networking.
Karen Boyer
17:19
And reputation
Jen Lamont
17:20
And reputational risk. Absolutely.
Karen Boyer
17:22
How did you let this happen?
Jen Lamont
17:24
Absolutely. Yep. We're stopping fraud.
Hailey Windham
17:27
No, she drew two. It’s your turn.
Jen Lamont
17:29
Hailey drew two for me since I wasn't paying attention. I can only talk. I can't play cards.
Hailey Windham
17:33
Steve, would you rather trust AI to write your SARS or trust AI to investigate your alerts?
Karen Boyer
17:39
Oh, I know mine.
Steve Lenderman
17:41
SARS.
Jen Lamont
17:42
You've already done your investigation. You’re just writing an error about it.
Steve Lenderman
17:44
Obviously we have to QA the SAR we do, but that capability is already there with a lot of providers. I think all of us have been down the SAR journey of writing 10, 20 thousand SARS over our, course of our careers. I'm okay with not writing another one.
Jen Lamont
17:58
Sounds about right. I am also okay with that.
Steve Lenderman
18:02
I guess I can pick these magic things up.
Hailey Windham
18:04
Karen, would you rather explain every AI decision to regulators or explain every manual decision to executives?
Jen Lamont
18:11
I know.
Karen Boyer
18:14
Well, if it's a manual decision, it is because AI didn't either work or it's not compatible. So I'm gonna go with the manual. Because I don't, I feel like regulators still have to, it depends what regulator. But I also think that they have a bit more learning to do about what AI really is. If we’re falling into the gap of any type of automation. Like RPA is AI. Like that’s not, like that's not, that not AI. That’s not machine learning.
Jen Lamont
18:47
No, it's a process.
Karen Boyer
18:48
Yeah, yeah.
Jen Lamont
18:49
It’s an automated process.
Karen Boyer
18:50
That's my answer.
Jen Lamont
18:54
Uh, draw for and pick a color.
Steve Lenderman
18:58
I just picked up half the deck, like two minutes.
Karen Boyer
19:00
Yeah, can you beep it out?
Hailey Windham
19:02
Yeah. Um, we’ll make it do a cha-ching sound.
Steve Lenderman
19:07
Ooh, now we're gonna have fun.
Karen Boyer
19:10
For the record, I didn’t want to play. Oh, wait. For the record, I’m undefeated. This is my synthetic identity playing.
Hailey Windham
19:17
Uh huh. Jen, would you rather have an AI assistant that never sleeps or a fraud analyst who never quits?
Jen Lamont
19:22
Oh my gosh, that is a good question.
Hailey Windham
19:25
What was the color?
Jen Lamont
19:26
I don't know. What color did you choose?
Hailey Windham
19:28
You didn't tell us the color. What color?
Jen Lamont
19:29
You need to pick a color.
Karen Boyer
19:31
I pick a color?
Jen Lamont
19:32
You got the draw four.
Hailey Windham
19:33
Yeah, you put the draw four.
Jen Lamont
19:35
I put the draw four down. You know, you pick the color.
Hailey Windham
19:36
No, you pick the color.
Jen Lamont
19:37
I pick the color?
Hailey Windham
19:38
If you put the draw four down, you pick the color.
Steve Lenderman
19:40
This is so much fun.
Hailey Windham
19:43
You guys are making this way more complicated. I guess nobody else has ADHD like me. Okay, yellow, she says.
Jen Lamont
19:48
We're more into dice games in my house.
Steve Lenderman
19:50
Yellow it is.
Hailey Windham
19:52
Oh, thank God. Okay. So, Jen, the question is, would you rather have an AI assistant that never sleeps, or a fraud analyst who never quits?
Jen Lamont
20:04
Okay, I know you guys are all three going to be extremely surprised by this answer, but a fraud analyst that never quits. Because I am fueled by human interactions and I thrive in helping people the way I feel I like I was helped in this industry. So I love being able to,
Steve Lenderman
20:23
It's a pretty easy question, honestly, because AI assists never sleep anyway.
Jen Lamont
20:27
Yeah, that's true.
Steve Lenderman
20:29
Did I get skipped here?
Hailey Windham
20:30
No, it's your turn now.
Jen Lamont
20:31
But if they did get, Steve.
Steve Lenderman
20:33
Okay
Karen Boyer
20:34
If they did, yeah. But if they did.
Jen Lamont
20:35
But yeah, no, I think
Steve Lenderman
20:36
That's really the fun of it. I don't know what that card, misprint anyway.
Hailey Windham
20:39
No, it can be whatever color you want.
Steve Lenderman
20:40
Oh, sweet.
Karen Boyer
20:41
No. You're supposed to sharpie in something.
Hailey Windham
20:42
Yeah, I hate those.
Jen Lamont
20:43
So we're always going to need analysts in this industry, and I think that, this is growing the next generation of analysts.
Karen Boyer
20:48
No, so this is actually an obstacle course. So you have to complete an obstacle course.
Steve Lenderman
20:52
Oh, okay. Yeah, we'll do that after dinner tonight. We'll do that.
Hailey Windham
20:56
Okay, and a color.
Steve Lenderman
20:57
Blue.
Hailey Windham
20:58
Of course it’s blue. No freaking blues.
Steve Lenderman
21:02
I’m trying to make this the longest game of Uno ever.
Hailey Windham
21:04
Okay, well here, hold on, I got it. No, we're gonna change it back.
Jen Lamont
21:09
Okay, is it my turn?
Hailey Windham
21:10
It's your turn now. Okay, let's see. Oh, conference edition. Would you rather miss every keynote or every networking event.
Steve Lenderman
21:20
Keynote easily.
Jen Lamont
21:22
Yeah. I mean, network is gold.
Steve Lenderman
21:23
While you do get some nuggets of gold in the keynotes, most of your networking, all of your networking is done from there, right? So yeah, network.
Karen Boyer
21:32
Double skip.
Hailey Windham
21:33
I've never seen that before in my life.
Steve Lenderman
21:34
Matter of fact, we're missing a keynote right now.
Hailey Windham
21:39
To be on the Fraud Forward podcast. If I was wrong,
Karen Boyer
21:43
Oh no, I don't.
Jen Lamont
21:44
What are we doing?
Karen Boyer
21:44
The double skip.
Jen Lamont
21:45
I forgot. Hold on.
Hailey Windham
21:46
I've never heard of that before.
Steve Lenderman
21:47
I’m going to build an AI agent to play Uno.
Jen Lamont
21:52
I'm pretty. This goes out. It comes out.
Karen Boyer
21:54
I don't know. Is it? Am I after her?
Hailey Windham
21:55
I don't know because you keep changing the rules of the reverses.
Steve Lenderman
21:58
If you are watching this, you have earned your place in heaven.
Hailey Windham
22:02
Or listened to it. Could you imagine just listening and not seeing? Okay,
Jen Lamont
22:06
I just reversed.
Karen Boyer
22:07
On top of you?
Hailey Windham
22:09
which means it went back this way. But then she says it's a double reverse, so that means it goes back.
Karen Boyer
22:14
Oh, double skip. There skips. We're past that.
Jen Lamont
22:17
All right, just put the card down.
Hailey Windham
22:19
Steve, Steve. Let’s reverse it back to Seve.
Karen Boyer
22:23
Wow, now we have a shun.
Hailey Windham
22:25
Okay. Oh, I know the answer to this one. Would you rather forget your business cards or lose your phone charger? Do you even have business cards? Yeah, we have LinkedIn.
Steve Lenderman
22:34
Who needs business cards? Hailey Windham (2235) I did just get some. I was very excited about this.
Steve Lenderman
22:37
I'll give you a gift. Pick whatever color you want. Karen Boyer 22:39) Is it me? I think it's going this way again.
Steve Lenderman
22:43
Well, whoever's turn you want to. Pick whatever color you want.
Hailey Windham
22:44
Red
Steve Lenderman
22:45
That’s fine, go red.
Hailey Windham
22:46
Uno.
Steve Lenderman
22:47
We're trying to lose this game as fast as possible.
Jen Lamont
22:49
Is it my turn or?
Hailey Windham
22:50
Yeah, it's your turn. Okay. Would you rather present to 2000 people or record a live podcast? Trick question.
Steve Lenderman
22:57
Well, obviously it's a podcast, but we're recording podcast in front of 2000 people.
Hailey Windham
23:02
Well, we're gonna do that. Let's do that. Okay. Would you rather win the conference giveaway or meet your fraud hero? Mark Evans was just here. That would have been the perfect.
Jen Lamont
23:12
That would have been the perfect question. I've already met 97% of my fraud heroes.
Hailey Windham
23:17
Same.
Jen Lamont
23:18
Few of them are sitting right here. All three of them are sitting right here.
Steve Lenderman
23:21
Shameless plug.
Jen Lamont
23:22
Right?
Steve Lenderman
23:24
Well, depends on what the conference prize is.
Hailey Windham
23:29
I mean, we could meet anybody on our own I guess, technically.
Jen Lamont
23:31
That’s true.
Steve Lenderman
23:32
I mean, I can always find other locations and meet my heroes. I can only win a car once.
Jen Lamont
23:36
True. I didn't think about that.
Steve Lenderman
23:38
I don't know if I ship that back home, but we'll figure that out.
Jen Lamont
23:40
I've never seen a car given away at a conference, so you know, I didn't think that big.
Steve Lenderman
23:44
It happens at RSA.
Jen Lamont
23:45
It does?
Steve Lenderman
23:45
Yeah.
Hailey Windham
23:46
It does.
Off Camera Speaker
23:47
There’s no money on the table.
Hailey Windham
23:48
No, we're just recording a podcast. You're good.
Steve Lenderman
23:52
We’re playing with stablecoin.
Hailey Windham
23:55
Thank you. Okay, let's see.
Steve Lenderman
24:00
You're “Recording In Progress” is up there, too.
Hailey Windham
24:03
Yeah. Okay. Who’s go is it?
Karen Boyer
24:04
You know what?
Jen Lamont
24:05
Go for it, Karen. Blue. Shit. You have blue.
Steve Lenderman
24:09
I was being nice. I told you you could pick a color.
Jen Lamont
24:11
Oh, you told me.
Steve Lenderman
24:12
And she stole it.
Hailey Windham
24:14
I didn't steal it.
Steve Lenderman
24:15
She borrowed it.
Hailey Windham
24:16
You. You said whoever.
Jen Lamont
24:17
There's been a lot of fraud committed in this situation, I think.
Hailey Windham
24:20
Okay, let's see. Would you rather answer emails all day or attend meetings all day?
Karen Boyer
24:26
Oh God.
Jen Lamont
24:28
Neither
Karen Boyer
24:32
Emails. I will. Because I attend meetings all day, and I can't get to the emails. And so then I can't ever, it just becomes a cycle.
Hailey Windham
24:42
Yeah.
Jen Lamont
24:43
I would rather attend meetings because my meetings are with credit union customers, and I really enjoy them.
Karen Boyer
24:48
Well, it does depend on what the meetings are. Like if it was like this,
Jen Lamont
24:50
Yeah
Hailey Windham
24:51
You don't have any sixes?
Steve Lenderman
24:53
Nuh uh.
Jen Lamont
24:55
That's a lot of sixes. It kind of makes me nervous.
Steve Lenderman
24:58
Can I use that?
Hailey Windham
24:59
Yes.
Steve Lenderman
25:00
Well, that’s a six. Whatever.
Hailey Windham
25:01
Uh, no. Just make it whatever color.
Jen Lamont
25:03
Yeah, color.
Steve Lenderman
25:05
Well, let me say I have the rainbow over here. Let's go green.
Hailey Windham
25:07
Okay, good. It's the only color I don't, oh perfect. Reverse it back to. There you go.
Steve Lenderman
25:12
Oh sweet.
Hailey Windham
25:13
Double up. You've got multiples.
Steve Lenderman
25:14
All right. I’ve got to be mean.
Hailey Windham
25:16
Would you rather solve fraud with spreadsheets forever, or never touch Excel again?
Karen Boyer
25:23
I love Excel. I think it's underrated. People, people, obviously it like, I’ll just see. I mean, there's some things that you just.
Hailey Windham
25:34
I know. You just double draw four’d me. Do you see this?
Karen Boyer
25:37
Yeah, but you're just a two. Because I drew two.
Hailey Windham
25:40
No, no, she went back on top of you. She put two, draw twos down.
Steve Lenderman
25:45
This is house rules.
Karen Boyer
25:46
Your turn, rules.
Hailey Windham
25:48
I think we're just gonna just play it however.
Jen Lamont
25:50
I want to finish. I want to hear you finish your thought about Excel. I'm very, I'm intrigued.
Karen Boyer
25:54
I just come back to Excel a lot.
Jen Lamont
25:55
I do too.
Karen Boyer
25:57
I haven't found a replacement for Excel. Excel's where I double check what ChatGPT gives me inaccurate numbers to, and then I yell at Chat GPTs like you lie to me. He's like, you're right.
Jen Lamont
26:07
Are you mean to your Chat GPT?
Karen Boyer
26:09
Only what it's mean to me.
Jen Lamont
26:10
Okay. Yeah.
Hailey Windham
26:11
Did you read that article recently about being nice to your Chat GPT?
Jen Lamont
26:13
No, but I've had that conversation with people. I am uber polite.
Hailey Windham
26:18
I'm uber polite. Please, thank you. Yes.
Karen Boyer
26:21
You're a southerner.
Steve Lenderman
26:24
Do we play poker? Because I have a straight.
Karen Boyer
26:28
Straight flush.
Hailey Windham
26:30
Wrong game, Steve.
Steve Lenderman
26:31
I'm trying. Not very well, apparently.
Karen Boyer
26:34
Um, yeah, I just feel like there's always a place for Excel. And sometimes, Excel allows you to see patterns that regular alert systems don't.
Jen Lamont
26:50
Yeah, yeah.
Karen Boyer
26:51
Sometimes they take the alert system, export it to Excel, and then
Hailey Windham
26:56
Do you have the draw two?
Steve Lenderman
26:58
I do not.
Hailey Windham
26:59
Are you sure? Because you can make Karen draw four..
Steve Lenderman
27:01
I don't.
Jen Lamont
27:02
Because you got rid of them.
Steve Lenderman
27:03
My goal is now to take as many cards as possible, so nobody else wins. Oh, that hurts. You're welcome.
Jen Lamont
27:14
. Yella.
Hailey Windham
27:15
Yellow.
Jen Lamont
27:16
Yella.
Hailey Windham
27:17
Who's um, what was the question we were at? I don't remember.
Karen Boyer
27:20
Excel. My love for Excel.
Hailey Windham
27:21
Yeah. Oh yeah. Do you disagree? Do you? What are your feelings on Excel?
Karen Boyer
27:27
Well, I just. The way the question is,
Hailey Windham
27:30
What color is it Jen?
Steve Lenderman
27:31
It's yella.
Jen Lamont
27:31
Yellow.
Karen Boyer
27:32
I don't want to work directly off Excel. I just don't want to . Don't not want to never touch it again.
Hailey Windham
27:37
Yeah, no, I'm with you. So are you an Excel guy, Steve?
Steve Lenderman
27:41
Yeah, living and breathing Excel is pretty much where it is at.
Hailey Windham
27:47
You’re an Excel guy?
Steve Lenderman
27:48
Yeah, you had to be. That was our AI.
Jen Lamont
27:51
Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, that was our dispute resolution system. That was our BSA appliance program, was all Excel. Yeah, I think
Steve Lenderman
28:00
Plus, what can’t you do in it? Right?
Karen Boyer
28:02
She just won.
Steve Lenderman
28:03
Thank God.
Karen Boyer
28:04
Did you say Uno?
Steve Lenderman
28:05
She did. She did. We recorded it, by the way. So we can go back and watch. Go back and
Jen Lamont
28:10
Yeah. Evidence.
Steve Lenderman
28:11
I got to go deal with some, uh, stuff.
Hailey Windham
28:15
Yeah, understood. So I appreciate you guys for for joining me. This is obviously just a little fun episode that we could do. It's going to be massive amounts of editing. Massive amounts of editing. Thank you, Vini. So I think, let's see. This is what I wrote. You know, this is the kind of perfect metaphor for fraud. Just when you think you figured everything out, the rules change. Someone plays a wild. Someone drops a draw four, and somehow you start over.
Jen Lamont
28:39
Karen and Haley disagree on the rules.
Karen Lamont
28:40
And don’t forget, we were out of line by definition.
Hailey Windham
28:44
Yeah, there you go. There you go. So thanks to Karen, Steve, and Jen. Of course, for hanging out, with me. And remember, stay vigilant, stay informed, and keep moving fraud forward.
Karen Boyer
28:53
Thank you all.
Hailey Windham
29:00
Thanks for listening to Fraud Forward. Remember, every conversation, every connection, and every insight moves our industry one step closer. If today's episode sparked an idea, share it with your team or tag me on LinkedIn. I love hearing how you're moving Fraud Forward in your own organization. Until next time, stay curious, stay resilient, keep moving fraud forward.
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