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Aproveitando a IA em investigações de fraude: por que os investigadores são os próximos criadores

54 min

Olá, combatentes da fraude! Sejam bem-vindos de volta ao Fraud Forward!

Conheci Assaf Kipnis por meio do trabalho dele na internet e, mais recentemente, ele compartilhou uma publicação sobre ter percebido que era mais do que um investigador.

Assaf tem 13 anos de experiência nas áreas de segurança, confiança e proteção e fraude, tendo desempenhado funções de investigação no LinkedIn, Facebook, Google e ElevenLabs. Atualmente, dirige a sua própria consultora, especializada em investigações, desenvolvimento de soluções de IA e inteligência de ameaças. Na nossa conversa, levanta uma questão que eu ainda não tinha considerado. Enquanto nós, enquanto setor, debatemos se a IA irá substituir os investigadores de fraude, quem comete fraudes está a usar a IA para experimentar, inovar e aperfeiçoar as suas operações. O que acontecerá se eliminarmos precisamente as pessoas que nos ajudam a manter a dianteira?

Falamos sobre como aproveitar a IA em investigações de fraude de uma forma em que os investigadores possam realmente confiar. Isso inclui as ferramentas de IA que estão sendo desenvolvidas para investigar fraudes, por que o contexto importa mais do que as alucinações, o que realmente significa manter um ser humano no processo e como uma base de conhecimento sobre fraudes pode evitar que o conhecimento institucional se perca quando alguém deixa a empresa. Vamos ao que interessa.

O que você vai ouvir neste episódio:

  • Por que as operações de fraude modernas funcionam como empresas, com metas, líderes e recrutamento, e por que derrubar mil contas não as desacelera
  • Por que substituir investigadores de fraudes por IA pode se tornar uma desvantagem competitiva para as equipes antifraude
  • Como Assaf criou uma ferramenta de investigação de código aberto que conecta fontes de OSINT e salva evidências no disco
  • Por que as alucinações representam um risco menor do que a IA tomar decisões com base em um contexto incompleto ou desatualizado
  • O que human in the loop e human on the loop significam na prática e por que revisar todas as decisões da IA não é escalável
  • Por que a maior parte de uma solução de IA deve ser composta por código determinístico e onde um modelo de linguagem realmente agrega valor
  • Como a mentalidade adversarial de um investigador ajuda no desenvolvimento com IA, inclusive ao tratar o modelo como um agente mal-intencionado
  • Como uma base de conhecimento sobre fraudes registra o conhecimento de investigadores experientes e o preserva mesmo após sua saída
  • O que os líderes de combate à fraude devem fazer em vez de simplesmente adicionar IA aos processos existentes

Você deveria ouvir este episódio se:

  • Quer saber se a IA substituirá os investigadores de fraudes ou recebeu a tarefa de automatizar investigações
  • Lidera uma equipa de combate à fraude e procura um caminho prático para uma transformação com IA que preserve os seus conhecimentos especializados
  • É investigador ou analista, sente-se limitado por não saber programar e quer descobrir o que muda com a IA
  • Quer aprender a criar ferramentas de investigação de fraudes com IA, com mecanismos de proteção e evidências rastreáveis
  • Preocupa-se com o que acontece ao conhecimento da sua equipa quando pessoas experientes saem
Notas do episódio

As operações fraudulentas funcionam como empresas

Assaf passou anos em algumas das maiores plataformas e me disse que a imagem de um fraudador agindo sozinho está ultrapassada desde cerca de 2020. Hoje, as operações fraudulentas têm uma estrutura empresarial. Há pessoas encarregadas do trabalho operacional, líderes e equipes responsáveis pelo recrutamento e pela infraestrutura. Ele não acredita que derrubar mil contas cause grandes danos a uma operação desse tipo. Os invasores também têm mais facilidade do que nós. Eles não precisam se preocupar com falsos positivos nem com crescimento. Só precisam encontrar uma forma de entrar, e a fraude é todo o seu negócio. Comentei que, em um banco comunitário ou uma cooperativa de crédito, muitas vezes estamos apenas tentando impedir uma única fraude. O argumento dele era que não podemos nos defender bem de algo até entendermos sua verdadeira dimensão.

Por que reduzir o número de investigadores pode nos fazer perder a corrida

Perguntei ao Assaf sobre a tendência de usar a IA para reduzir o número de funcionários e automatizar as investigações. Ele vê riscos reais nisso. Criar uma ferramenta de IA é um projeto de desenvolvimento de software, e um modelo não conhece os detalhes da sua organização. Se retirarmos as pessoas que sabem combater fraudes, acabamos com decisões automatizadas para as quais não estamos preparados. Ele também me lembrou que os agentes não se recordam do dia anterior como uma pessoa e não têm ideias novas por conta própria. Enquanto isso, quem comete fraudes não está reduzindo as suas equipes. Está colocando pessoas para trabalhar com IA e experimentar coisas novas. Certa vez, um executivo bancário me disse que essas ferramentas são excessivamente complacentes para tomar boas decisões. Sem pessoas envolvidas, acabamos ocupados, mas sem avançar.

A ferramenta que Assaf criou e por que as evidências são importantes

As investigações de fontes abertas exigem muita paciência. Assaf criou uma ferramenta para tratar do trabalho mais moroso. A ferramenta liga-se a várias fontes e APIs de OSINT, incluindo o VirusTotal e a Spamhaus, e segue o método de investigação que ele aprendeu ao longo dos anos. Quando abre um caso, a ferramenta cria as pastas de provas e envia um conjunto de agentes para encontrar ligações, entidades associadas e atividades relacionadas. Tudo é guardado no disco e nada permanece no contexto do modelo, porque ele não confia nisso. Assaf mantém-se envolvido durante todo o processo. Questiona o que a ferramenta encontra e, quando necessário, orienta-a numa nova direção. Quando termina, a ferramenta produz um documento com capturas de ecrã e fontes que lhe permitem rastrear a origem de cada descoberta. Adoro esse pormenor. Um investigador pode confiar numa ferramenta quando cada descoberta é acompanhada pelas respetivas provas.

O contexto representa um risco maior do que a alucinação

Assaf foi cauteloso neste ponto. Ele não quer que ninguém saia pensando que as alucinações não são importantes, porque elas acontecem, sobretudo quando ele trabalha fora do seu próprio sistema. O que mais o preocupa é um modelo fazer uma avaliação com base num contexto incompleto ou incorreto. Ele comparou isso a um analista que lê um relatório de há dez anos e baseia toda uma decisão nele. O modelo não está a mentir. Simplesmente recorreu aos dados errados. Ele também não confia apenas no que um modelo aprendeu durante o treino. Em vez disso, pede-lhe primeiro que pesquise o tema e depois usa essa pesquisa para tomar a decisão. Comparei isso a pedir a um investigador que analise um caso sem lhe dizer de que tipo de fraude se trata. Ninguém esperaria bons resultados. O mesmo se aplica à IA. Uma decisão só é tão boa quanto o contexto em que se baseia.

A supervisão humana é mais do que uma mera formalidade

Assaf considera que “human-in-the-loop” se tornou uma expressão da moda. Se isso significar que alguém analisa cada resultado gerado pela IA, o trabalho avança a passo de caracol. Ele descreveu dois tipos de ciclos. No desenvolvimento, quer que a IA o avise quando algo falha ou quando chega a uma decisão que não está autorizada a tomar. Em matéria de fraude e segurança, o ciclo está mais relacionado com falsos positivos e com a revisão final. Para manter a supervisão sob controlo, desenvolve a maior parte de uma ferramenta com código convencional e utiliza o modelo apenas em pontos específicos. Não pede a um modelo que leia uma pilha de registos. Pede-lhe que escreva um script para os analisar e, depois, que raciocine sobre os padrões encontrados. Um sim, um não ou um número devem vir do código. O que retirei disto é que o verdadeiro trabalho consiste em decidir onde a IA pode tomar uma decisão e onde não pode.

Os investigadores são os próximos criadores

Durante anos, Assaf deparou-se sempre com a mesma limitação. Tinha ideias, mas, sem conhecimentos de programação, precisava de recorrer a engenheiros que levavam tempo a compreender o que ele queria dizer. A IA eliminou essa barreira. Agora, pode ser o tipo de analista-construtor que sempre quis contratar. Segundo ele, a sua mentalidade adversarial dá-lhe uma vantagem quando desenvolve algo. Trata o modelo como um agente malicioso. O modelo não tem intenções maliciosas, mas acabará por fazer algo que ele não esperava, e Assaf prepara-se para esse momento. Quando algo corre mal durante o desenvolvimento, ele para e faz uma análise da causa raiz, tendo transformado esse processo numa competência. Os investigadores fazem boas perguntas e detetam os problemas cedo, e ele acredita que isso fará deles a próxima vaga de criadores. Adorei ouvir isso. Mostra-me que os investigadores têm mais para oferecer do que aquilo que lhes reconhecemos.

Transformando o conhecimento das pessoas em infraestrutura

Perguntei a Assaf como podemos captar aquela intuição que um investigador experiente tem quando algo em um processo parece estranho. A resposta dele foi: uma base de conhecimento. Todos os relatórios e conclusões são registrados nela. As pessoas conversam com o modelo enquanto trabalham, e ele aprende com as perguntas delas. Quando alguém sai da equipe, ou simplesmente esquece o que fez no mês passado, a equipe pode perguntar o que aconteceu da última vez que surgiu algo parecido. Isso também resolve o problema do “você leu a wiki?”. A resposta vem do conhecimento acrescentado durante o trabalho. Assaf reconheceu que é difícil construir isso em grande escala e também fazer esse trabalho retroativamente, e que as pessoas continuam sendo necessárias. Alguém precisa cometer erros e aprender com eles. Para os líderes, o conselho dele foi sentar-se com cada investigador, decompor o trabalho e reconstruí-lo com IA. Incorporar IA aos processos atuais é tentador porque é rápido e barato. Ele espera que, daqui a cinco anos, as pequenas tarefas estejam suficientemente automatizadas para que os investigadores possam se concentrar em decisões mais importantes. Esse é um futuro que eu gostaria de ver.

Principais conclusões
  • As operações fraudulentas funcionam como empresas organizadas, e desativar contas individuais raramente as atrasa.
  • Substituir os investigadores de fraudes por IA elimina o conhecimento especializado necessário para desenvolver e orientar ferramentas de IA.
  • A IA não conhece sua organização, não se lembra do que aprendeu e não consegue inovar sem as pessoas.
  • Evidências rastreáveis são o que torna uma ferramenta de investigação com IA confiável. Salve as descobertas fora do contexto do modelo.
  • O contexto representa um risco maior do que a alucinação, pois um modelo que encontra os dados errados tomará a decisão errada.
  • Human-in-the-loop significa decidir em que situações a IA pode tomar decisões e quando deve pedir ajuda, em vez de revisar cada resultado.
  • A maior parte de uma solução de IA deve ser composta por código determinístico, com o modelo sendo usado em pontos específicos e controlados.
  • A mentalidade adversarial de um investigador ajuda no desenvolvimento com IA, e a análise da causa raiz transforma falhas em aprendizados.
  • Uma base de conhecimento sobre fraudes preserva o conhecimento institucional quando as pessoas saem, e ainda é necessário contar com pessoas para alimentá-la e corrigi-la.
  • Os líderes de combate à fraude devem reformular os processos em conjunto com os seus investigadores e evitar simplesmente acrescentar IA ao que já existe.
Conclusão final

Passamos muito tempo a falar sobre o que a tecnologia pode fazer. Assaf lembra-nos de que ela funciona melhor quando capacita as pessoas que compreendem o problema. A sua equipa já detém conhecimentos que talvez nunca tenham sido documentados, desde o padrão que parece estranho até à história por detrás de uma decisão tomada há anos. Antes de decidir onde a IA se enquadra, pergunte-se como pode captar esse conhecimento especializado e colocá-lo em prática, e como os seus investigadores podem ajudar a conceber o que virá a seguir. A necessidade de investigadores não vai desaparecer.

Quer receber mais conteúdo sobre o combate a fraudes na sua caixa de entrada? Assine a The Monday Fraud Fix, minha newsletter semanal com as tendências, histórias e principais aprendizados que estou acompanhando. Assine aqui.

Conecte-se com Assaf Kipnis | LinkedIn
Proprietário e consultor-chefe da ASK Consulting

Conecte-se com Hailey Windham, CFCS | LinkedIn
Apresentadora do podcast Fraud Forward
Líder da comunidade bancária na Sardine
Especialista certificada em crimes financeiros (CFCS)
Destaque do setor de cooperativas de crédito em 2023, CU Magazine
Prêmio de Melhoria Contínua, SAFE Federal Credit Union, 2023
Uma dos 20 melhores profissionais com menos de 40 anos, The Sumter Item, 2022

Episode transcript
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:05
What is up fraud fighters and welcome back to Fraud Forward.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:08
I have been looking forward to today's conversation for a while.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:12
So I originally discovered Assaf Kipnis through
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:14
an episode of, of course, the OG Fraudology.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:17
Um and I've followed his work ever since.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:19
And recently he shared something about realizing he was more
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:23
than just an investigator, and it resonated with me.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:26
You know, I spent most of my career in
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:28
fraud investigations and operations.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:30
And for a long time, that's how I saw myself, too.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:33
It took a mentor pointing out that my practical knowledge of
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:36
banking, payments, fraud, and the processes behind it all gave
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:40
me a much broader understanding than even I realized.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:43
And that's actually what prompted me to reach out to Assaf today.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:47
So, then we had a conversation even before recording and he
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:50
challenged something that I hadn't really considered.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:53
While we're debating whether AI will replace fraud investigators,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
00:57
the people committing fraud are using AI to experiment,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:00
innovate, and improve their operations.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:02
So, what happens if we automate away the people
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:05
responsible for helping us stay ahead?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:07
Today, we're talking about human innovation, building AI that
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:11
investigators can actually trust, and why the future of fraud
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:14
fighting may depend on how well we combine human expertise with technology.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:19
So, Assaf, welcome to Fraud Forward. I'm so glad you're here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:23
Thanks, Hailey. I'm I'm really happy to be here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:25
I've been following you for a really long time
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:28
now, so I'm super excited about this.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:30
The the inner monologue of me just went, Ah!.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:32
So, thank you so much.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:33
Um, for for those of you that or for those in the audience
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:36
who may not be familiar with you, I'd love it if you know
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:40
before we dive into the conversation, if you could introduce
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:43
yourself, give them a little bit about your background
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
01:46
and, you know, why it is you do what you do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:49
Sure. So, my name is Assaf Kipnis.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:51
Uh, I've been in the security, integrity, trust, and safety
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:55
and fraud space for about 13 years right now.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:58
I spent my career uh doing mostly social media investigations
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:02
at the highest tiers of the investigation teams.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:05
Started at LinkedIn for several years.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:08
Most of the time I was at uh Facebook.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:10
Uh both as an investigator on the e-crime
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:13
team and a manager on the e-crime team.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:15
Doing scaled mitigation, tracking threat actors,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:19
ident basically investigating things that other
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:22
teams just couldn't figure out at that point.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:25
Then I spent some time at Google and ElevenLabs and now I am running
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:29
my own consultancy doing both investigations, AI first
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:33
investigations, because I really got into that in the last couple of years.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:38
And AI builds and threat intelligence and things like that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:42
Just things that make me happy.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
02:52
Uh well it makes me happy because now we get to
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
02:54
benefit from your expertise and knowledge.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
02:57
And again just so grateful that you're here with us today.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:00
So when we first talked, you know, during our earlier
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:03
conversations, you challenged the perception of fraudsters
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:06
as individuals that are working alone.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:09
You described them as businesses with goals,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:11
processes, and even innovation cycles.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:13
What do you think are we misunderstanding about
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
03:16
how modern fraud operations actually work?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:19
So I don't want to say that everybody misunderstands
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:22
that, but I struggle with working only in the largest
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:26
companies that have the largest scales.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:28
And for that reason also have the most
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:31
complex attackers attacking them.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:33
But from my experience, especially after 2020, fraud operations,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:37
scam operations, they're no longer this person sitting in a in a
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:41
garage or someone in West Africa doing it by themselves, which
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:46
in South Africa, I don't even know if it was ever that case.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:50
Fraud operations are running like companies.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:52
Whether it's the Yahoo boys that are when we look
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:56
at them, we're like, "This is not a company.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:59
" But when you look deeper into them,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:01
they have a a corporate structure. They have goals.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:05
They have people that do grunt work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:07
They have people who who are leaders, people who do the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:11
communication, the the the recruiting uh and infrastructure.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:15
So, a lot of times when I talk to to to people in this space,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:19
I feel like we're still I'm still hearing people saying,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:22
"Oh, I'm going to take this account down or I'm going
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:26
to block this uh device and we're good to go.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:29
" And I'm seeing that I'm still seeing that at scale
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:32
when when uh companies even the biggest companies
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:36
celebrate taking down a thousand accounts.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:38
And that's um from at least from my experience, that's not
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:42
something that harms uh a scaled operation at all.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
04:49
Yeah, I I can see exactly what you mean and and for for those
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
04:52
in like the community banks and credit unions, we struggle
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
04:56
and we are just trying to take down usually the one.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
04:59
But you're right, they are operating at these massive scales
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
05:03
and so if we stop one, what is it a drop in the bucket?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
05:06
And also they don't have the same regulatory hurdles
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
05:10
that we have and rules in place that prevent us
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
05:13
from innovating at scale like like they have.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
05:15
You know what advantages do you think they have over what we do?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:20
Well, they don't have to deal with growth.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:22
And across everything I've done, uh growth
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:25
growth has always been the the hindrance.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:28
And I'm not saying that from an adversarial
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:31
perspective, growth has to happen.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:33
But it was always how do we minimize false positives?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:37
How do, they don't have users.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:39
We have people that we need to serve and we need to work around that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:43
And the more the attackers try to look like
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:46
real users, then the harder it is for us.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:49
Um the other thing from from an attacker and a defender perspective,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:53
an attacker just needs to find one entry way.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:56
A defender needs to defend all possible entryways and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:00
think about what other entryways might there be.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:03
So as far as tactics and organizations, they have less
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:07
limitations and they also have the opportunity to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:10
to continuously innovate and and and check.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:13
The other thing that comes to mind is fraud
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:16
prevention is never the business.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:18
So it's always a part of what we do and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:20
for them fraud is the business.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:22
So they have a lot more opportunity to direct
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:25
resources towards that than we do.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:42
Yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:42
You know, the way that my mind works, I always
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:45
try to um bring in practical things.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:47
And what you just reminded me of of like, you know, the defenders
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:50
have to defend every open vulnerability and whatnot.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:53
I just thought back whenever my husband and I found out we were
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:56
having a girl and his mom came up to him and said, you know, if
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
06:59
you were having a boy, you'd have to worry about one boy.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:02
Now you have to worry about every boy
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:04
in the world with your one child. And so I I feel the same way.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:07
It's like God with us as as fraud people is especially if we
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:10
don't have the the holistic understanding of the payments and
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:14
processes and infrastructure of your own organization.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:16
It's it's almost impossible to try to protect every vulnerability
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:20
you may have because you don't necessarily understand it.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:23
Making sure we've got, you know, the right people in place, but
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
07:26
it's very easy for that little snake to kind of slither his way in.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:30
And and you can never know the full intricacies
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:33
and full structure of your own organization.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:36
Um I always said at, when I was at Facebook, like
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:39
the attackers know our systems way better than
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:42
we do, and we're also segregated into pieces.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:45
My team deals with this and this team deals with that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:49
They don't care.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:50
Um they they need to get to to to the point of exploit.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:53
While we have people that are innovating on our product and changing
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:58
the product without telling us because that's how products work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:02
And we are only defending a certain pieces
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:05
and everything has its own compartment.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:07
Um so they have a lot more freedom to to play around.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:16
Yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:16
And you know, one thing that we wanted to make sure we
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:20
covered in this this first uh portion of our of our conversation
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:23
is, you know, we hear a lot about using AI to reduce
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:26
that headcount and automate investigations.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:29
You've argued that this approach could actually
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:32
create a competitive disadvantage.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:34
I'd I'd love to dive into that for a little bit.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:37
Yeah, I've been playing around building
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:39
things with with AI for a while.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:41
And it's hard sometimes because I'm in my own AI bubble and I think,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:46
oh, everybody kind of understands it in the way the same way I do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:50
And then I talk to people and it's like, okay, maybe not. Um, and
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
08:56
I'm one of those people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:59
And there's a lot of So, yes, I think yesterday I someone
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:02
said something in a fraud group that I'm on that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:06
was very interesting to me and I agree with.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:08
It said um the narrative out there is that you just put
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:12
something into a black box and it produces a tool.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:15
And that's just not the case.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:17
Building AI products is a software development product.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:21
It's a it's a software development process.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:24
Especially in our space because there's so many more
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:27
decisions that could happen within the process.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:31
That we have to have someone that knows what they're doing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:34
So we cannot expect while we are told that the AI
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:38
is this all knowing uh entity that knows everything
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:41
about everything and can just produce stuff.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:44
It doesn't know the the the details of your organization.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:48
It doesn't know the details of everything that you do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:51
And if you take the person who has the expertise in the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:55
space, and it doesn't have to be the expertise in your
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:59
company, it's the expertise in how do we do things?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:02
How do we fight fraud? How do we how do you develop software?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:06
You're going to lose the edge and you're going to end up with AI
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:10
processes that are making decisions that you are not ready for.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:15
And the next piece of that that what we're talking
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:18
about is, AI cannot innovate on its own.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:21
AI cannot think about oh what was the conversation I had 3 days
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:25
ago with someone, and they found something really interesting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:29
Let me see if I can research that more.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:32
That thing might be known in the in the internet somewhere,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:36
but your agent it, this task has no context of that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:39
The other thing that I'm constantly noticing about
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:42
agents is that we think they think like us. They don't think like us.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:47
They don't say, "Hold on, I did this and then I did that and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:51
that broke, and then I learned something over there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:54
And the next time that happens, I'm
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:57
going to say, Oh, I remember that. " They don't remember anything.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:01
Um even if you are building like you know those brains that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:05
learn and knowledge bases they're still not cognitive to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:09
the point that they can say ah hold on let me innovate
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:12
on this piece, or I remember talking to that person, or
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:16
making this mistake yesterday, or 10 minutes ago.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:19
Um so when you're doing that and you're taking the person out of the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:24
equation, you're just going to have motion without progress.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:28
You're gonna continue building stuff, but they're not going
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:32
to be anything new and exciting or interesting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:35
Uh, and on the other side of that, the threat actors
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:38
are not thinking, how can I reduce headcounts?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:41
They're thinking, how can I increase what I'm getting?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:45
So they're sitting there and using people to build
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:48
with AI, and innovate, and find new ways.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:51
Because some they see they see us protecting
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:54
and they're like okay that didn't work. What else should we try?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:58
And also the other thing they need to innovate harder with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:02
Because uh current LLMs are built to not
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:05
be conducive to malicious activity.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:07
So they need to consistently go around
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:10
the AI to figure out how to do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:12
So while they doing that and we're saying we're going
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:16
to just have less people and have everything completely
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:20
automated, we're losing the race.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:35
I can see that. I also think that I'm being gaslit by my LLM.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:38
Because it makes it makes me think
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:40
that it that it thinks like I do.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:42
Uh you know, for instance, last night I said,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:44
"I would like to make some brownies. " I'm going to read this.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:48
I said, "I would like to make some brownies,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:50
but I don't have any cocoa powder.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:52
" I do however have white chocolate hot cocoa mix.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:55
Could I use that with some other household
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
12:58
ingredients to make brownies? And it said yes. Laughing emoji.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:01
We are absolutely baking brownies with what you've got.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:04
Now, they ended up being delicious.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:06
But the way that this responded back to me made
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:09
me think that it's thinking just like I am.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:11
The way it responds to me is responding the
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:14
way that I would respond to people.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:16
I mean, it's laughing at me with a crying emoji.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:19
Like, what is going on here?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:20
So, I think I'm being gaslit by my LLM to to make me think that
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:24
it's thinking like I am, but it's not as innovative and creative
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:27
as we as humans are and have proven to be in the past.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:31
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:32
And also, it doesn't have the like it might have
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:35
the context in the in in the training that someone
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:38
made brownies like that and like, okay.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:41
But most of the time, it's it's looking to to appease
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:44
you to say, yeah, we can make this work.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
13:48
Yeah, we can make it work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:49
And it's built to to be that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:50
It's built to be for some reason, it's built
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:53
to be a mass product for everybody.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:56
But what I think is missing here is that there's a very big gap
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:00
between the consumer product and the enterprise product.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
14:05
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:06
And we're Yes. As a consumer, you can ask it stuff.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:09
It will talk to you. I've done that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:11
And you can brainstorm and you can get all
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:14
kinds of fun ideas and have it research.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:17
But once you needed to make actual decisions, it's not
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:20
just that you needed to make actual decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:23
You needed to make gated decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:26
You needed to make educated and gated decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:29
And when you get there to the point where you can't
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:32
have the decision be made with the wrong context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:36
Or the decision made with context that's irrelevant,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:39
because that's uh that's what would happen.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:42
It would just, oh, I don't have context for this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:45
Let me take something and then I don't have control of that context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:50
So at that point you're starting a cascading issue of possible
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:54
problems that you're that you're not seeing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:57
Because it's making these decisions and then it keeps
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:00
going down the decision tree, and then you come back
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:04
and you're like uh where did this go wrong? Where did it break?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:08
And it's very hard to trace.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:11
Yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:11
I had um a a bank executive tell me once that um the decisions
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:15
are harder with these LLMs because they're too agreeable.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:18
They they want it to work.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:20
So, whenever you want it to make a decision, it's going to try to
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:24
be agreeable to allow a transaction to go through or whatever.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:28
And I love that you started bringing up context.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
15:30
Context is huge whenever we're thinking about this.
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15:34
Fraud fighters, if you're anything like me,
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15:36
your list of things to read keeps growing.
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15:38
Your time to read them though probably not so much.
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15:40
That's why I write The Monday Fraud Fix.
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15:42
It's the newsletter companion to Fraud Forward.
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15:45
So every Monday I'm sharing fraud trends that made me pause,
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15:48
what I'm reading, conversations happening in our community,
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15:51
and the fraud fighters that I think you should know.
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15:54
I also bring my take, you know, what it means for the people
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15:57
doing this work, and the questions we need to be asking.
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15:59
Every now and again, I might leave you a
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16:01
little Scooby snack to start your week.
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16:03
You know, I just can't help myself.
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16:05
You can find The Monday Fraud Fix on Substack or tap
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16:08
the link in the episode show notes and subscribe.
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16:10
I'll see you in your inbox, fraud fighters.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:13
We'll shift and talk now, You know, that AI is only as
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:15
reliable as the context and and controls around it.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:18
That's what you've mentioned before.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:20
And you've spent, like you mentioned, a lot of last
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:23
year building investigative tools with AI.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:25
What have you been building and and what
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
16:28
problems were you trying to solve?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:30
So, one of the main things that I wanted to do
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:33
is I really enjoy open source investigations.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:36
And after being in very large companies and coming out and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:39
only having to use open source, it was very daunting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:43
Cuz I'm like, I had all the information that I needed to do
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:47
investigations, how do I do investigations now with none of that?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:51
And a lot of open- source investigations or open
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:54
source investigations general is tedious.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:57
It's opening links, and Google dorking, and finding the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:01
affiliate link, and clicking it, and where does this
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:04
go, and then finding I don't know records of stuff.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:08
So I wanted to see how I can automate these in automate
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:11
investigations that I can run OSINT uh open source investigations faster.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:16
And also actually run them.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:18
Because if I run if I want to run something just for fun about cuz
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:22
that's my fun I find affiliate marketing and stuff like that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:27
And I I I don't know why it's I enjoy it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:29
But it's not fun if I'm doing it for three days straight and I'm
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:34
hitting my my head and like having spreadsheets that's a pain,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
17:43
Right
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:43
Um so how do I do that that it it works quickly
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:46
and I can do multiple at the same time?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:48
So my favorite tool that I built is open source investigation
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:52
tool that is connected to multiple open- source intelligence
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:56
um MCPs and and resources, and AP and a bunch of APIs into
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:00
virus total, and spamhouse and things like that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:03
And also I entered I kind of brought into it a lot of the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:07
investigative methodology that I know, and investigative
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:11
methodology that I've learned from other people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:14
Like doing a premortem, second-guessing decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:17
And essentially what it does now I say okay open a new case.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:21
Uh it opens all of the context folders that need to go into the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:26
evidence folders, because everything has to have evidence for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:30
And then it's I say okay we need to go, here are uh
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:33
three links, This is what I'm concerned about, Go.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:37
So, what it does essentially is starts understanding
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:40
what I wanted to do for the specific investigation.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:44
Then starts fanning out with swarms of agents to find all the links,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:48
all the affiliates, everywhere that's it's been talked about and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:52
starts aggregating the information and actually saving it to disk.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
18:57
So everything I have, nothing sits in the context
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:00
for the LLM, because I don't trust that at all.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:03
Everything sits on folders on my disk. And then it reasons from that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:08
Um, but I've spoken to people, oh, but what do you how do
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:12
you know that it just went to the direction you want?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:15
So the whole point of it is, I'm in the loop.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:18
It comes to me and says, I found this. What do you want now?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:22
And then I can doubt what it's saying.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:25
I can have it research what it said to me and say, "Show me
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:29
the evidence" and then pull it in a different direction.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:32
I'm doing that right now.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:34
This is a big one that I'm actually been working on for 3 days.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:38
And I constantly need to redirect it,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:41
because it's like an investigator.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:43
It goes down rabbit holes and sometimes
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:45
we go down rabbit holes together.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:48
But what I really like about it is that at the end it
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:51
produces a full document for me uh with evidence.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:54
Meaning screenshots, where everything came from, all the documents.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
19:59
And that's the most important part to me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:02
So if if some if I look at the document and say, hold on.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:05
Where is that from?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:07
It can tell me exactly with a screenshot where it came
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:10
from, and the link, everything, and how it goes
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:13
all the way back, because everything is saved.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:17
It doesn't need to go back to its own context
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:20
and say, where did I go that? It where did I find that?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:23
It goes directly into the MD files that I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:26
have, and can trace itself backwards. So that's my favorite tool.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:36
It honestly sounds really cool.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:37
Um, and I love though also you talk about the rabbit holes, right?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:42
And one thing that that I know that I've experienced in the past,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:46
and others have too, is the the hallucinations, right?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:49
That that come from uh using these AI tools.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:52
And so during our conversation, you argued that hallucinations
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:56
aren't necessarily the the biggest risk.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
20:59
That that the bigger risk is that AI is making decisions
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
21:02
based on incomplete or incorrect context.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
21:05
Can you explain that difference there?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:08
Yeah, I don't want to have a sound bite that people grab that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:12
says Assaf said no shouldn't care about hallucinations.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:15
Hallucinations are a thing, but I honestly I've mostly experienced
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:20
hallucinations when I'm working with uh something outside my system.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:24
An example would be I put something on on GitHub
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:27
and it's been gaining a lot of stars. Another thing that I built.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:32
And I said to, usually I don't play with ChatGPT.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:35
ChatGPT is only like a chat that I talk to.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:38
So, it doesn't have any other context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:40
And I said, "Can you find who talked about this online?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:44
" And it gave me a LinkedIn account and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:47
said, "This person talked about it. " And I went to the account.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:51
This person doesn't post anything. Like, what what's happening here?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:55
Oh, I saw this person's name somewhere and then I just added it here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:00
So, essentially, hallucinations are the AI making decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:04
And at this point, we can call it a hallucination, but basically
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:08
what it did, it researched, saw a name, and made the decision
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:12
to grab that name and say that's that's your resource.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:16
That that worked.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:17
So what I want to say is that the problem
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:20
itself is not the hallucination.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:22
It's the decision without behind the hallucination.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:25
And what I see in my work is that the LLM will make
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:29
a decision based on incomplete data or even in my system
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:33
sometimes it will just grab the wrong data.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:35
Um I have I constantly iterate, and constantly change things,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:39
and I ask a question, and I'm like that has nothing to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:43
do with what, like it has but this is super old data.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:47
Where did you get this?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:48
Oh, when I made the decision to go find it, the first thing
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:52
that came up was this document that still lives here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:56
So that's my context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:57
So what happens is basically if we compare it to a human, is you go
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:01
to an analyst, and say go give me an answer about this problem.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:06
And they went and read a 10year-old uh report
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:09
about how this problem was 10 years ago.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:11
And then they made their entire decision based on that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:15
So essentially it's not,I I really hate when
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:18
people say that the LLM is lying to them. It's not lying to you.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:22
It's just it just found the wrong data to make this
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:26
decision about, and it really wants to make a decision
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:29
and tell you that you find something.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:32
And then it just cascades down from that wrong decision.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:35
It's a really long- winded way to explain like why the judgment
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:40
of the LLM is the part that's that I am worried about.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:43
That it makes a judgment in a decision with
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:46
incomplete, misplaced, or wrong context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:49
Which is exactly what happens to people.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:09
Yeah. Yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:09
I I appreciate that knowing that we have to provide it that fresh,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:14
specific context in order for it to make these good decisions.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:18
Um I I guess it's like you can't tell a fraud
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:21
investigator to go and investigate something if
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:24
they don't know what type of fraud it is.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:26
We have to explain the fraud.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:28
They have to understand it and the investigation
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
24:31
that comes afterwards.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:33
And I think that's the gap.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:34
The gap is that the kind of chatter around
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:37
is the LLM knows everything. How could it make the wrong decision?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:42
It knows everything. It knows everything better than me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:45
And I've long time ago stopped relying on the agents training.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:49
I think relying on the training of the LLM is where we go wrong
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:54
because we're like, "Oh, it should know everything.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
24:57
" This it's it's I think it's because we've been trained on Google.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:01
Like you ask Google a question and it will it doesn't give
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:05
you sometimes they'll give you an answer but usually they'll
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:09
give you like this is where here are all the links.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:13
You make the you make the determination.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:15
And we kind of think it's like Google, but it's not.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:19
Um whenever I need to make a decision about research for
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:23
example I'm looking at some videos and I needed to understand
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:27
how huristics of AI slop, I hate that word, but
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:30
AI slop videos what the huristics look like.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:33
So I didn't ask the LLM what the huristic look like. I said start.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:37
I have a research uh skill, open the research skill,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:41
go find everything that known people in the field have
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:44
written about this, and synthesize it for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:47
Then let's take that context and make the decision
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:51
about how to find these huristics.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:53
So essentially we need to tell the LLM, hey go learn
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:56
about this now and it's not to have context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
25:59
It's the LLM doesn't constantly find context
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:02
about everything in its training.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:04
It's there, but um you need to if we if you need
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:08
something specific, you need to go and have it researched
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:11
exactly like you would tell a person.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:27
I think that's one thing that we miss um is that
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:29
we do have to give it additional context.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:31
And we do find that out once the you know the outcome comes and
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:35
we're like uh I don't think that was what I was actually looking for.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:38
Here's this you know we got to start with
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:40
that and don't just blindly trust.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:42
The other thing that you know everybody seems to
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:45
be talking about, and you mentioned it a second
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:47
ago, is you know the human in the loop of AI.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:50
And I've also been exploring the concept of human on the loop.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:53
Do you think the industry actually understands
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
26:55
what meaningful human oversight looks like?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:58
No because it's well don't want to be that guy.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:01
I don't know everybody in the industry, but a lot of times I see
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:05
human in the loop and I see it as a talking point as a and a catchphrase.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:10
Human in the loop is dead.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:12
As far as a thing, it's become a buzz word.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:14
Uh we just need a human in the loop.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:17
And to me, it's the same buzzword as saying
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:20
AI slop, because it means nothing. What do you mean? What is AI slop?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:24
What is human in the loop? What loop?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:27
How are you putting this human in the loop?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:30
So I had a conversation recently with someone and their
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:33
perspective of human in the loop is every single decision
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:37
that the AI makes, must have a person review it. Which is bananas.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:41
You you can't do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:43
You can, you'll just work very very slow and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:46
it's not, it's it's completely ineffective.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
27:56
It's not scalable
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:58
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:59
So, usually what I see is when it's with people who are less familiar
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:03
with with automation, because you can't have a person look
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:07
at something that's automated and constantly review.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:10
I think there's of course there's tears.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:13
Because there's regulation, there's sensitivity,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:16
there's false positives.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:18
You have to identify when you want a human decision to be there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:22
But I think the concept that is becoming a human
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:25
in the loop is a human verifying the AI's work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:29
I think that's fundamentally flawed from multiple perspectives.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:33
And on the, so it's flawed from one perspective
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:36
that you just can't do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:38
And if you are thinking about I am going to, I don't
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:41
trust the AI at all, and I'm going to have it make, I'm
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:45
every single output I'm going to have to check.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:48
That's just not happening.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:50
But from a different perspective, at least the way I look
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:54
a human in the loop is in the development side.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:57
I want to be aware if something breaks.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:59
I want to be aware if you made a decision that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:02
I already said is the wrong decision.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:05
Or a decision that is gated, or you ran down
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:08
a rabbit hole and you just got stuck there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:11
I want the AI to be able to come back and tell me, hey, I did this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:15
What should I do here?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:17
So, it's it's different because I think there's like
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:20
a software development human in the loop, and there's
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:24
like a fraud and safety human in the loop.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:26
And I think the way fraud and safety and security think
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:30
about it is like how do I reduce false positives?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:33
How do I make sure that I have a human review
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:36
in the end and things like that? Those are different.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:40
But fundamentally from a process development perspective,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:44
you can have a human in the loop, but it's a lot
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:47
more intertwined than people make it look.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:50
It's like, oh, you just come in the end to say yes, no.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:53
It's a lot more, a human in the loop
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:56
is how the AI makes the decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:58
Or more how the AI is allowed to make the decisions.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
30:15
I think that's a very good point. I do have a followup on that.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
30:19
You know, AI is essentially going to produce more work than
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
30:23
than we humans can realistically keep up with or review.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
30:26
How how do we design oversight that's both effective
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
30:30
and and scalable for for these organizations?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:36
The concept that I've been struggling with some of my clients
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:40
on, were was oh we just want to make just make it with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:43
Just have the info like the spreadsheets or the logs go into
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:47
AI it will do its thing, and it will all come back.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:51
So that's where things break immediately.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:54
When you think that the AI or the agents are going to do all
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:58
the work end to end, and all you got to do is prompt it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:01
Because what happens again is you didn't give it guidelines,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:05
you didn't give it guardrails, you didn't give it context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:09
And I think what is happening a lot, and this is a big
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:13
friction point I see between people who are more technical
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:17
like software engineers and people who are not.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:20
And where people who are not software engineers they'll say well
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:24
we're just going to put it all together it's all going to work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:28
And software engineers like ah no everything needs to be software.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:33
There's a middle a middle ground.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:35
So when I build things the even when I'm talking about
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:38
my investigation tool the investigation tool uses
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:42
The LLM uses the AI in very specific places.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:45
It's not using it everywhere. Um, most of the work is code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:49
And I haven't written code in many years and I don't plan on it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:53
I leverage the AI to write the code for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:56
But when I build something, most of the output,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:59
most of the build is deterministic.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:01
So an example would be I need you to grab five pages of logs from
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:06
somewhere, parse through them and then find patterns and huristics.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:10
I know that I can do all of that with code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:13
I have done that with code in several companies.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:16
And I can tell Claude, okay, pull the logs.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:19
I will never have Claude read through logs because
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:22
that's where it gets confused and starts making
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:25
stuff up because it just wants to be good. Parse the logs.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:29
Don't read them. Make a script, parse everything, download it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:33
Uh use uh a Python library to find the patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:37
And at the end, when you find the patterns, call the LLM to reason
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:41
on these patterns against the context of the investigation.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:45
And even then, the LLM is gated and for specific
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:48
decisions it just cannot make.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:50
But the the whole point of what I'm trying to say, this is
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:54
kind of the definition I'm trying to make between consumer
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
32:58
and builder or enterprise is that as a consumer, you can
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:02
just play around with it and build stuff and it's fun.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:05
But as an enterprise, code exists. It's there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:08
It's always been there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:10
By the way, it's free, and AI will write it for you.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:13
So one, it's free and two, it's deterministic.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:16
And a lot of our work needs to be deterministic.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:20
And we cannot have a probabilistic machine make decisions for us.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:24
It can make assertions and determinations on patterns,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:27
and it can find new things and incorporate new data.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:31
But if you need an answer that's deterministic, a yes or a
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:35
no or a number, which is most of the work, that's code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:38
So I'm not saying you need to write code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:41
Tell the LLM to write the code for you.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
33:56
I would have to get the LLM to write code for me.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
33:58
I can't write code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:00
I'm not writing code. Also, what what a waste of time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:02
You know, even if I was really good at it,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:04
it would still take me 10 times the time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:06
Just Okay, just write a script to do the thing and let's go.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:09
Yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:09
No, the last time I did anything with
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:12
code was uh 2009 and on MySpace. My my page was really cool.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:16
I just want you so cool.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:18
All the moving things. I remember that.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:20
All the moving things, all the glitter in the background, my songs.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:24
God, so cool.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:25
Yeah, I remember that. I had that. Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:27
You started and there's a song.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:29
Yep.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:30
Been there.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:30
You click on your page and that would determine how cool you were.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:33
And then your top eight would change and it's like gh you didn't
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:36
want to remove that one person because then they'd know.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:39
I think LinkedIn should do top eight.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:40
Do you know how much drama that would cause?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:43
It would be so dramatic. It would be great.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:45
So dramatic, but it'd be worth it. I think
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:47
Uh yes, it would.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:49
Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about that investigator role.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:52
That was one of the things that I really
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:54
wanted to talk to you about.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:55
Um, you know, you one of the reasons I originally reached
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
34:58
out again was just because your post about realizing
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
35:01
that you're more than just an investigator.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
35:03
And I had that moment in my career where I knew
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
35:06
that I was more than just an analyst.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
35:08
Um, what led you to that realization?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:10
So, I remember working at Facebook, which
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:12
was definitely the job I liked the most.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:15
And where, that was the place where I always worried
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:18
about this is going to end one day, which it did.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:21
Um, and I remember thinking like, okay, if
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:24
I'm not here anymore, where do I go?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:27
Like, I know how to do social media investigations.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:30
That's what I want to know how to do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:32
And I know people that worked with me that went to banking
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:36
and went to intel and like intelligence and stuff like
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:40
that, but it was always like this is what I do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:43
And uh went to Google and kind of like was the same.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:46
Uh and then ElevenLabs was the same.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:48
But and this is one of the best things I got from ElevenLabs
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:52
because ElevenLabs is a real AI first company.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:55
Everything happens with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:57
And that I kind of took that on when I started working on my own.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:01
And that's one piece.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:03
The other piece is that as as an investigator
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:06
who doesn't code, I always had a ceiling.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:08
And I'm sure you're familiar with the ceiling.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
36:12
Oh, yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:12
Of like I have an idea.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:13
Why don't we query this and put this on it and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:16
this on it and put all these things together?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:19
And you're like, okay, I don't know how to do this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:23
Maybe I'll do it by hand.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:24
And then do you go to an engineer who's like okay
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:27
you don't know what you're talking about.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:30
Or even if they're cool it's like okay I need to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:33
build this for you this going to take a while.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:36
I need to understand what you're doing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:39
So working with AI, it's all of a sudden the ceiling is gone.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:43
And I I think that's the experience of a lot of people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:47
That suddenly this this, you're not technical.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:50
And towards the end of working corporate I got a lot of that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:54
And I really begrudge it, still do, of you're not technical
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
36:58
so you don't know what you're talking about.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:01
And that is where the investigator kind of sits of like I know how to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:05
investigate, but I have this ceiling that I just cannot get through.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:10
And honestly when I was at Facebook I really tried tried
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:14
to learn Python and play around with Python notebook.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:17
And it was always just not my thing and I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:20
always say like work to your strength. And that wasn't my strength.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:24
And as I started working with AI all of a sudden
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:28
like oh this ceiling is going away.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:30
I'm not saying I'm I'm a very good author of code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:33
And I'm sure a lot of my code an engineer
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:36
will look at it and say oh my god. Which is fine.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:39
But I've noticed a couple of things one
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:42
is now I can now I can be a builder.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:44
Like uh at Facebook we had analysts, an analyst builder.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:48
And I remember when I was a manager, I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:50
only wanted to hire analyst builders.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:53
I didn't I didn't want to hire people who didn't know Python.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:57
And it hurt because I'm like that's I'm hiring people who are not me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:02
I wouldn't, I said that, I wouldn't hire myself.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:05
But now I can be an analyst builder.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:07
But then I realized that having the ability or kind of the over
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:11
time the, I guess ability is the right word, to have an adversarial
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:16
mindset is extremely powerful when you're a builder.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:19
Because a lot of so essentially builders who
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:22
are very good, they just want to build.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:25
Let me build it, and I don't care, let
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:27
me just build, just make it go.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:30
And even vi vibe coders are seeing it right
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:32
now and they're like things break.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:35
And as a person that's been doing the adversarial living
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:38
in the adversarial mindset all the time, all of
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:42
a sudden I can apply that to building things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:45
To say, okay, where is the LLM going to mess with me?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:48
Where's the where do I need to say mm mm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:51
This is left or right, and I have to enforce this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:54
And the way I've been looking at that is really perceiving
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:58
the LLM itself as I'm building as a threat actor.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:01
Not a malicious threat actor, but a threat actor.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:05
It's going to do whatever it wants to do at some points and I have
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:09
to make sure that I know those points are coming and I know how to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:13
produce something that will stop it from producing bad data.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:17
And that's where it hit me that I'm like, Oh, I'm a builder
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:21
now and I can build in a very very specific way because
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:25
of my experience as an analyst and an investigator.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:28
I can build as an investigator.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:30
Um, someone recently said, um, the next wave of
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:34
builders, I forget who he said they were. Oh, it's these people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:38
I said, no, it's investigators.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:40
Investigators are the next the next wave of builders
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:43
because they see the problems before they manifest.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:47
More importantly, they ask the questions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:49
Investigators are people who ask questions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:52
And the more questions you ask when
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:55
you build with an LLM, the better.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:57
And the questions would be stuff like you built
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:00
I built something and it went awry.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:02
Instead of saying build it better, I say stop.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:05
We're doing a root cause analysis, and I built a skill for that. Why?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:10
What? I wanted you to do this, and you did this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:13
Um, and we stop and we ask why and we
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:16
learn from it every single time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:18
Actually now it just does it on its own.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:21
Um, and I think that's the the evolution at least that I had as an
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:25
investigator that I could say I can build securely now and robustly.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:29
And not just for investigations, but for anything. I can build a CRM.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:34
I don't know um if they do that, too.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:37
But uh just building with data integrity
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:39
in mind always which is not so common.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:04
I love that.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:04
Um, I also have I have two follow-up questions on on the building
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:09
of this and like thinking with the investigator in mind.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:12
Um, you know, experienced investigators often recognize patterns
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:16
or inconsistencies that they they can't immediately explain.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:20
I can remember being an investigator and pulling the NACHA
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:24
file and just something felt off when I looked at it.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:27
I had no other explanation other than it just felt wrong.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:31
How do we capture that knowledge and make it
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
41:34
useful beyond the individual investigator?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:37
I think that the best thing that AI development has been
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:40
has given us, especially as investigators, but not only,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:44
is the ability to aggregate knowledge and query it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:47
To build knowledge bases.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:49
So I can figure something out and it gets recorded in the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:53
knowledge base and then when someone else experiences a
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:57
similar thing, it can go back to the knowledge base.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:00
You can go back and say, "Hey, I see this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:03
Has anybody else in my team experienced this, and how?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:06
" So you can go and it will find it in the knowledge
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:10
base and it will say, "Oh yeah, Pat experienced this,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:13
in this investigation, and this is what they saw.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:17
" That's extremely powerful and it also grows
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:20
exponentially to a lot of things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:22
I use knowledge base all the time because I don't remember anything.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:26
But to have the ability to have a team, a company, an organization
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:31
knowledge base, that's the real unlock that someone leaves
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:35
the company, and you're like and you're like shit, Okay.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:38
Uh he's the only, she's the only one,that did this investigation,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:43
and the only one that knows anything about this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:46
And now we're boned because I need to figure this out.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:50
Or in 2020, I worked on some election stuff and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:53
a friend of mine investigated specific things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:56
Thankfully, he was still on the team. He's like, "Copy paste.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:00
Here's all my documents. Go figure this out. " And I did.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:04
Instead, I can just go, "What did Ryan find out here?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:07
Give me give me the patterns. Give me the highlights. Teach it to me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:12
"
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
43:25
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:26
And now I know.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:27
And now, I don't even, that I can just say here's
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:30
a thing that I found compare it against the knowledge
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:33
base and figure out what what's here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:36
And that's to me from our organization is the biggest unlock.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:40
And I hope people don't hear it as like oh
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:43
so you just don't need people anymore.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:45
No, you still need people um because someone needs
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:49
to go through these things and make mistakes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:52
Someone needs to make mistakes and realize their mistakes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:55
Some AI makes mistakes and does not realize
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:58
their mistakes, a lot of the times.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:01
So someone needs to have that and then the knowledge base
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:04
needs, that's how the knowledge base grows and expands.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:08
And that's where you don't get these knowledge gaps or you don't
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:12
get, my favorite thing that people said to me when I would
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:16
ask a question they would say did you read the wiki?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:20
I want you need to you need to not ask me this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:23
You need to read the wiki. So, is the wiki updated?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:26
Um, so all of that can be automated and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:29
you don't need to read the wiki.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:31
You just ask a question and the wiki will tell you because it's all
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:35
there because it was all processed in while people are working.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:40
Um, I hope that answered the question because the the knowledge
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
44:44
part is the thing that I feel is the biggest thing.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
44:50
Absolutely. No, it it totally did.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
44:52
There is one other piece that I wanted to
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
44:54
ask before we kind of wrap this up.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
44:56
Um, and it was something that you mentioned to me about
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
44:59
turning what people know into infrastructure.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:02
And I think that's what you were kind of touching on a
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:05
little bit here, but I' I'd like it if you could kind of
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:08
explain exactly or actually what does it mean and how
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:12
can organizations begin doing something like that?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:14
Because just like you mentioned, somebody with extensive knowledge,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:18
not just in the industry, but in a specific organization, how it
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:22
works, and they leave after 30 plus years, there's no one else in
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:26
that building, in that organization that knows what they know like
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
45:30
how do we make sure that we put this into the infrastructure.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:34
So this is the point of the knowledge base.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:36
Is again, I'm not trying to say that this is easy.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:40
It's very hard, especially at scale. It's hard to scale this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:44
And it's also hard to do it retroactively, right.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:47
But the way I have done it in small scale
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:50
and I believe it can grow with work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:52
Uh I never want to say these things are easy.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:55
So is that the way I look at it is every piece of intelligence every
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:00
piece of information any report that anyone creates, needs to live
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:04
in a knowledge base that can that can uh compound and aggregate.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:08
And as you're doing that, and you uh you're having people
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:12
even talk to the LLM as they're doing an investigation.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:16
And that's the thing, this is where kind this comes full circle to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:20
the conversation of do we make people, do we not need people anymore?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:25
No, we need someone to talk to the LLM
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:27
as doing they're doing something.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:30
And that's how the knowledge base, learns from you pushing back,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:34
and asking questions, and all of that getting aggregated.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:38
Like what did Assaf ask? What did Hailey ask a week ago?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:41
And where did that take us?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:43
And as you grow that, you are able to build that into future
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:47
decisions, you instead of saying, "Oh, does this person this person was here?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:52
Do they remember what happened when we tried something like this?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:57
Oh, okay.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:58
" We actually know what happened exactly when
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:01
we tried something like this 5 years ago.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:03
Um and that's how this works into kind of corporate infrastructure
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:08
or even small company infrastructure that you have the capability to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:12
make informed decisions without, it's not only people leaving.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:16
It's, people don't remember what they did a week ago.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:20
People don't remember what they did a month ago.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:23
But their decisions live a long time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:26
And also the way that they reach the decision, those
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:29
decisions that can aggregate, and is queryable.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:32
And you can have the LLM reason on that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:35
And the interesting part is, I'm sure you've had this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:38
You were doing an investigation and there's a threat actor,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:42
and you said the threat actor's name, uh out loud.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:46
And someone from the other side of the room like, oh that guy?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:50
Oh Yeah. I worked in that three years ago.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:53
And if you didn't say it out loud, you would waste a lot of time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:57
So the knowledge base would say, Oh, that guy?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:00
This person worked at it three years ago. Here's all the information.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:05
Here's everything you need to know.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:07
So that's how you incorporate that into the work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:10
And it's not only in investigations. You can do that in anything.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:15
Uh it's just compounding and expanding knowledge, live.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
48:24
Yeah. So true. So true. Okay. Last last question.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
48:27
What should fraud leaders uh be doing today to develop
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
48:30
their investigators into the people who will help design,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
48:34
supervise, and improve tomorrow's fraud systems?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:39
They should sit with each one of them and say,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:42
What does our system look like today?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:44
What does our system need to look like if we incorporate AI into it?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:49
What they should not do, is take AI and bolt it on
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:52
their current structure and current processes. It's very tempting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:56
It's fast. It's cheap and it looks good.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:59
And a lot of people are going to do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:02
But that's the way to, you need to talk
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:04
to the people who are doing the work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:07
Have them break the work down completely, and rebuild it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:11
And I know it sounds bananas, because it's it's a lot.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:14
But that's the way to do it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:16
It's, AI is not something you bolt on top of what you're doing.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:31
Yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:31
I think it's also just recognizing, you know, the importance
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:35
of the role of the the fraud investigator in all of this.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:38
And so I I guess I maybe fib to you.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:40
I'll ask you one more question.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:42
5 years from now, what do you think we'll realize that we
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
49:45
completely misunderstood about the role of the fraud investigator?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:49
I think at least in a perspective of what we're looking at it now, I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:53
think what we're looking at in the fraud investigator is like someone
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:58
who can make these bounded decisions and provide yes or no answers.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:02
And that's a very simplified way to do it um to say it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:06
But I think what we're not seeing right now is the capability of
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:10
the fraud and abuse investigators, uh the investigator to ask the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:14
right questions, to really really deeply understand problems.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:18
And we are not leveraging that right now.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:21
Um at not everybody is leveraging that to the point of like I can
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:26
really leverage this way this person thinks to help at scale.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:30
And what AI is do is doing is unencumbering the fraud
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:33
investigator and the fraud invest management from the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:37
minutiae of like the the doing the menial things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:40
And we're going to see that the investigator mindset is the the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:44
mindset that helps grow processes, and find patterns at scale.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:48
Which I know a lot of business investigators trying to do right now,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:53
and a lot of them are getting burnt out hard, because they see it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:57
But they can't do anything about it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
51:00
So what my hope is that in 5 years all the small things are automated
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
51:04
enough, that we are able to make these large determination use, fraud
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
51:09
investigators to make these large determinations at scale.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:30
I love it.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:30
I love that that we're proving the
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:32
need for the investigator, right?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:34
And the fact that they aren't going anywhere.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:37
I will never forget I I even told you this.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:40
I um posted a picture once on LinkedIn of my daughter.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:43
She gave me a thing for like the Mother's
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:45
Day things that they do at school.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:47
And it's like my mom is a fraud fighter and when
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:50
I grow up I want to be a fraud fighter.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:52
And I posted on LinkedIn and some jerk, that's the nice
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:55
way to say it, commented was like well too bad there won't
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
51:59
be one whenever she's uh old enough to get a job.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:02
And I was like you are wrong.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:04
It's it's a it's a sound bite.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:05
This is the problem I have when people say that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:07
It's not that they're wrong or right, is that they have nothing
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:11
to back it up, and they're just repeating a sound bite.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:14
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:15
They're not producing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:16
It's funny because you say a lot of people
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:19
say AI is not original thought.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:21
It could be, but then again, that's not an original thought.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:25
You're just repeating something you heard
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:28
without any information to back it up. And that's always frustrating.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:34
Yes, it it totally is.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:35
Um, and and also it's just one of those things
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:38
that I think about even when I grew up.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:40
Last last uh episode I talked about being a Gamecock
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:43
fan, SEC Gamecock band, and we have been rebuilding
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:46
for as long as I've been alive.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:48
And we haven't had very successful years of of training.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:51
And I'm sitting here and I'm going, is it
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:54
because it wasn't an original thought?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:56
Did my parents just tell me I was a fan and now
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
52:59
I'm a fan and I can't help but be a fan?
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:01
I didn't make my own judgment call and now here I am stuck
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:05
being disappointed by my football team every year.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:08
Yep.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:09
As long as we beat Clemson, I'm okay.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:11
Exactly.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:13
Assaf, thank you so much for joining me.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:15
I think that this is just such an important conversation.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:18
Especially as you know, fraud teams are are being
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:21
asked to do more, move faster, and figure out
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:23
where AI really fits into their operations.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:26
We we spend a lot of time talking about what technology
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:29
can do, but we can't lose sight of the people who understand
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:32
the problems that we're trying to solve.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:34
So to everyone listening, I'd encourage you to think about how
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:38
much knowledge exists within your own fraud team, that may
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:41
never have been documented or shared or fully recognized.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:44
You know, how do we make sure we're using AI to strengthen
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:47
that expertise rather than losing it?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:50
Yep.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:51
So, thank you again so much for joining me today.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:53
All right. Thank you, Hailey. I appreciate it.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:55
Absolutely.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:56
All right, fraud fighters, stay vigilant, stay
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
53:59
informed, keep moving Fraud Forward.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:06
Thanks for listening to Fraud Forward.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:08
Remember, every conversation, every connection, and every insight
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:12
moves our industry one step closer to stronger fraud defenses.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:16
If today's episode sparked an idea, share
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:19
it with your team or tag me on LinkedIn.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:22
I love hearing how you're moving Fraud
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:24
Forward in your own organization.
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:27
Until next time, stay curious, stay resilient,
Smiling blonde woman in a black blazer with arms crossed, standing in a room with a "LIVE ON AIR" neon sign.
Hailey Windham
54:30
keep moving Fraud Forward.