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詐欺対策の皆さん、元気にしてましたか？Fraud Forward へお帰りなさい！

今回のエピソードはいつもと少し違っていて、正直かなり楽しい内容です。ACFEカンファレンスの会場で、ウノをしながら公開収録しました。詐欺対策の世界で長く働いている人なら、なぜそれが“完璧なシチュエーション”に感じられたのか、もうおわかりですよね。すべてを理解したと思ったその瞬間に、誰かがリバースカードを出してルールが変わり、気づけばまったく別の問題を解くことになっている——そんな世界なんです。

今回ご一緒するのは、素晴らしい不正対策リーダーである Karen Boyer 氏、Steve Lenderman 氏、そして Jen Lamont 氏の3人です。軽いゲームとして始まったはずの時間が、いまの不正対策チームが直面している最大級の課題について率直に語り合う場へと、あっという間に変わっていきます。エージェント型AIを悪用した不正やシンセティックID詐欺から、不正対策組織のリーダーシップ、アナリスト育成、詐欺被害の防止、そして人間の専門性が今なお最も重要となる領域まで、幅広いテーマを掘り下げていきます。

この対話で特に良かったのは、台本が一切なかったことです。現場のプロたちが、何が変わりつつあるのか、何が過大評価されているのか、そして次世代の不正防止を形作るものは何だと考えているのかについて、率直な意見を交わしてくれました。

このエピソードでお届けする内容：

  • エージェント型AIを悪用した詐欺が、なりすまし（合成）ID詐欺の未来をどのように変えてしまう可能性があるのか
  • 合成エージェントによる不正行為と自律型デジタルIDを取り巻くリスクの高まり
  • なぜ人間が介在するAIが不正防止にとって依然として重要なのか
  • AIはアラートの調査を行うべきか、それともSARの自動化に注力すべきか
  • AI主導の業界における不正対策アナリストの将来の役割
  • なぜ小切手詐欺は依然として不正対策の専門家を悩ませ続けているのか
  • ネットワーキング、メンターシップ、そして業界での連携の重要性

このエピソードは次のような方におすすめです：

  • 不正防止、調査、リスク管理、または金融犯罪対策のチームを率いており、他の実務家たちがエージェント型AIによる不正や業界の将来についてどのように考えているのかを知りたい方。
  • 不正対策におけるAI、機械学習による不正検知、不正検知の自動化が、人間の専門知識の価値を損なうことなく、どのように業務改善につながるかを検討している。
  • 金融機関が備えるべき合成ID詐欺、合成エージェント詐欺、そして次世代の詐欺脅威について、実践的な議論を求めている。
  • ヒューマン・イン・ザ・ループ型AI、AIによる不正アラートのトリアージ、AIによるSAR作成、そしてSAR自動化が自社の不正対策プログラムのどこに位置づけられるべきか、また人間の判断をどこまで中心に据えるべきかを検討している。
  • 経験豊富な不正対策のプロフェッショナル同士が、リーダーシップやアナリスト育成、不正対策教育、そして現代の不正防止を形作る現実的な課題について率直に語り合うセッションをお楽しみください。
エピソードノート

エージェント型AIによる詐欺が、私たちの議論のあり方を変えつつある

議論の中で最も興味深い瞬間の一つは、スティーブが合成アイデンティティ詐欺の次の進化について語る場面です。単に偽の身元情報だけに焦点を当てるのではなく、彼は「シンセティック・エージェント」という概念を紹介します。これは、その身元情報に代わって行動を実行できる、AIによって動かされるエンティティのことです。

それによって、議論は従来の不正検知の枠を超えたものになります。

エージェント型AIによる不正行為が高度化するにつれて、不正対策チームは、ある身元が正当かどうかだけでなく、自律型AIシステムが金融機関と、ますます人間に近い形でやり取りしているかどうかも理解する必要があります。

これは、詐欺対策の専門家が今から備えておくべき次世代の詐欺脅威の一つです。

人間が関与するAIは依然として不可欠です

今日の不正対策に関する議論の多くはAIが中心となっていますが、その場にいる誰も、テクノロジーが人間に取って代わるとは主張していません。

その代わりに、議論は繰り返し「人間が関与するAI（ヒューマン・イン・ザ・ループAI）」に立ち戻ります。

機械学習による不正検知は、パターンの特定、アラートの優先順位付け、調査の支援を通じて、不正対策業務の高度化を継続的に推進しています。しかし、文脈の理解や判断、モデルだけでは説明できない顧客行動の把握には、経験豊富な不正アナリストが依然として不可欠です。

このパネルは、将来はAI対不正アナリストという対立構図にはならないという説得力のある主張を展開しています。

AIが不正検知アナリストと協力して働く時代です。

AIは反復的な作業をなくし、批判的思考は奪うべきではありません

もう一つ繰り返し挙がるテーマは、AIがどこで最も大きな価値を生み出すのかという点です。

AIが不正アラートの調査を行うべきか、あるいは不審行為報告書（Suspicious Activity Reports）を作成すべきかと問われると、結論は明確です。繰り返し発生する文書作成はAIに任せるべきだということです。

SARの作成やSARの自動化をAIに任せることで、調査員は事務作業から解放され、アナリストは複雑な調査や顧客保護に専念できるようになります。

その違いは重要です。なぜなら、不正対策においてAIに過度に依存すると、組織が反復的な作業ではなく調査判断そのものを外部委託し始めた場合に、新たなオペレーショナルリスクを生み出しかねないからです。

不正対策のリーダーシップは、より良い問いから始まる

最高の瞬間のいくつかは、まったく技術とは関係ありません。

「Would You Rather」の質問は、人員配置、経営陣のコミットメント、顧客教育、そして本当に優れた不正対策リーダーシップとはどのようなものかについての議論を生み出します。

パネルでは次の点について議論します：

  • 経営幹部が不正リスクをより深く理解する必要性について。
  • なぜ現場の不正対策アナリストが最も早い兆候を捉えることが多いのか。
  • 無制限のテクノロジーよりも、無制限の人員配置の方が価値を持つ場合がある理由。
  • なぜ予防には個々のツールではなく、協働が重要なのか。

これらの対話から、個々のテクノロジー投資よりも、リーダーシップの意思決定のほうが不正対策の結果に大きな影響を与えることが明らかになります。

不正防止は依然として「人」が中心のビジネスである

このライブディスカッションから得られる最も大きな教訓は、不正行為はこれまでも、そしてこれからも、人間に起因する問題であり続けるということです。

テーマがシンセティックID詐欺、小切手詐欺、詐欺におけるAI、あるいは不正対策アナリストの育成であっても、最終的にはすべての議論が人に行き着きます。

テクノロジーは今後も進化し続けます。

不正行為の手口は今後も変化し続けます。

しかし、経験豊富な調査担当者、好奇心旺盛なアナリスト、協調的なリーダー、そして強固な専門家コミュニティこそが、効果的な不正防止の土台であり続けます。

主なポイント
  • AIはアナリストを置き換えるのではなく、支援・強化するべきです。
  • エージェント型AIを悪用した不正行為は、合成アイデンティティや自律的なデジタル活動をめぐって、まったく新しい課題をもたらしています。
  • 強固な不正対策プログラムを構築するうえでは、テクノロジーと同じくらいリーダーシップも重要です。
  • 人材・プロセス・テクノロジーが一体となって進化するとき、不正防止は成功します。
最終的なポイント

不正行為はこれまでになく急速に進化しています。

人工知能は、不正行為者の手口と金融機関の対応方法の両方を変えつつあります。同時に、不正対策チームは自動化と人間の判断のバランスを取りながら、経験豊富なアナリストが重要な意思決定の中心に居続けられるように配慮しつつ、機械学習による不正検知に投資しています。

この対話を通じて、私が強く信じていることが改めて確信されました。それは、テクノロジーは不正対策のプロフェッショナルを置き換えるのではなく、彼らの力を高めるものであるべきだということです。最も強力な不正対策プログラムは、イノベーションに加え、現場で培われた経験、探究心、そしてコラボレーションを組み合わせて構築されています。

エピソードのリソースとリンク：

つながるKaren Boyer CFE, CFCI, CCCI | LinkedIn

M&T銀行 不正対策インテリジェンス担当 上級副社長（SVP）、ディレクター

「不正は新たな摩擦であり、不正防止は新たなカスタマーサービスである」の提唱者

つながるジェン・ラモント（CFE、CBSAP）| LinkedIn

不正対策ストラテジスト（Point Predictive）

次の方とつながる：Steve Lenderman, CFE, CFCI | LinkedIn

不正防止部門責任者

合成不正対策のSME兼不正対策専門スピーカー

つながる: Hailey Windham, CFCS | LinkedIn

「Fraud Forward」ポッドキャストのホスト

Sardineのバンキングコミュニティリード

公認金融犯罪スペシャリスト（CFCS）

2023年 クレジットユニオン・ロックスター（CU Magazine）

継続的改善賞（SAFE連邦信用組合、2023年）

2022年 トップ20 プロフェッショナル・アンダー40（The Sumter Item紙）

Guests

Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
SVP, Director of Fraud Intelligence at M&T Bank
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
Fraud Strategist at PointPredictive
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
Head of Fraud Prevention Synthetic Fraud SME & Expert Fraud Speaker
Episode transcript
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
00:05
So, what is up, Fraud Fighters? We are gonna do something a little different today, a little fun. Usually on Fraud Forward, obviously we sit behind microphones and we talk. We have a conversation about, you know, strategy or whatever else. But today we're going to sit around the table and we're going to play some Uno. You know, because if you worked in fraud long enough, you know that every day feels like a little game. Just when you think you've got it all figured out or a winning hand, someone drops a damn draw four, and then it starts back up and ruins your whole day. So I am here with three of my favorite fraud fighters. So we've got Karen Boyer, we've got Steve Lenderman, and Jen Lamont.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
00:42
Hello.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
00:43
And I am so excited. So it started. It landed on a Uno reverse. So I don't really know what we're gonna do with that one.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
00:49
Dealer gets goodies.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
00:50
Dealer gets goodies. Okay. So Jen, that's
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
00:54
No, no, no! You get goodies, so you keep it, and then
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
00:58
Why do I get the card?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:00
Oh, nice! That’s a good card, you should keep that. Steve Lenderman (1`:02) This is a dynamic rule set. It's gonna change.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
01:05
Yeah, with these two, yeah.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:09
Okay, so our color is yellow. Jen, you can start, and then we're gonna go, obviously, that way. But with the theme being yellow, we'll talk to leadership right now. Ooh, Karen, draw two. That you know what we do with draw twos? Draw two means I do that in my normal game. But apparently Uno says we're not allowed to put draw twos on top of draw twos.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
01:27
Who says that?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:28
Uno.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
01:29
That they changed the rules.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:30
That's what I said. Because I keep it going. You can draw eight. Just keep going.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
01:34
Why don’t you ask a guy what we can’t do in Uno.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:36
Right. Uno. Can we play that? I mean,
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
01:39
So what am I supposed to do? Do I have to draw two right here?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:39
Um, we're gonna do,
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
01:41
I'll just take the four and change this up. As the only married guy here, I'm just gonna take the cards and move on.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
01:49
We appreciate you, more more than you know. Yeah, absolutely. And taking one for the team. So I'll do a would you rather question since we did draw fours. Would you rather have a perfect fraud prevention or perfect scam prevention?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
02:02
Oh me?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
02:03
Anyone
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
02:04
Oh okay. Well, every, are we supposed to like play during this? Because I'm gonna get long winded.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
02:09
Go ahead. We're playing. We know that. Give you a scam and put a five.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
02:16
I, this is too much for me together. I don't care for when people separate fraud and scams.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
02:25
Oh, I love that answer.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
02:26
I think that scams are fraud. Like if somebody says, "Oh, that was fraud, you're like, "That's not fraud. That's a scam. Like, what? That's insane. So,
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
02:33
I agree. Scams are fraud. It's the same strategy.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
02:38
Okay, I can agree with that. So we're on blue now. AI and tech, Steve. What do you think? What do you think is the best fraud tool? And we don't have to have names, but what does the tool do? Although, I mean, if you want to drop some names, I don't know.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
02:51
I don’t know. It feels ironic. Fraud tech came up, so listen. We always talk about AI. AI, AI, AI. Like I think it's part of our solution, but I think a lot of us are depending too much on it, and and that's going to be a crutch that we're going to come across here. Is that we're going to forget that fraud is still single fraud, but AI is helping us enable it, scale it. But it, we have to understand we just can't do the same thing in our space as well, right? You got to really understand there is a human in the loop. Can't forget that.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
03:19
Love that. Love that.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
03:20
Can I touch on that?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
03:21
Yeah,
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
03:21
Please do.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
03:22
I think that it's also comical that others outside of the fraud industry think that AI is new. We've been using AI. I mean, there's a Falcon model that was like built out in the '90s.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
03:36
Actually, our presentation yesterday, the first AI turn was 1956. Technically, AI was developed in 1701 by a mathematician, which AI is just the ability to predict. So the concept of of statistics, palatability, essentially was the birthplace of AI. Just they had no machinery or technology to actually do what we do with it today. I was quite impressed with that.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
04:01
So 1956?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steven Lenderman
04:02
1956 was when AI was, our term was, coined.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
04:06
That's interesting. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have thought that. I mean, I wouldn't have been shocked at like the 70s or 80s, but 56 seems pretty,
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
04:11
If you use if you use Falcon, Falcon was also a version of AI that meant
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
04:15
That was my first job, was working Falcon Reports.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
04:16
Mine too.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
04:18
Did you just quote Falcon?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
04:20
No, you got skipped.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
04:21
Thank God. I already took four cards. I was going to take four more cards. Like,
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
04:27
But since Karen was skipped, the question I have for us, skip is, what's one topic that we need to skip that is overhyped?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
04:35
AI. And it is new.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
04:38
Jen, what do you think?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
04:39
A topic that we need to skip?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
04:42
Can I do this? Or, I mean, I feel like I can. That I early 2000.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
04:48
Do you know you could do that? But I hear you.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
04:52
I'll fire it out there. Check fraud. I'm tired of hearing. We had this. We saw the solution to check fraud. It’s just that we're too stubborn as consumers to solve the problem.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
05:00
I don't think it's consumers. I think it's a postal issue.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
05:04
Perhaps. But they're over there, so be careful.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
05:07
Well, I didn't mean like like. But it's. I'm not blaming people. If mail theft is, is,
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
05:17
I yeah I don't want to do, I don't want to do away with check payments. I think it's still,
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
05:21
The rest of the world has. We're the only civilized country,
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
05:24
Yeah, but what if we spell it with a Q?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
05:26
Oh that’s different, but yes,
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
05:28
I mean that's
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
05:29
Or my favorite, we put a check in an envelope that says “payment enclosed”. That’s my own,
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
05:32
Oh, that's
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
05:33
Like whenever you can read it, and the top it says "pay to the order of, and it's like, geez.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
05:36
My favorite is when we tell people don't use checks, use bill pay. And then they don't realize that 90% of the checks that they bill pay,
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
05:44
Are manual checks.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Steve Lamont
05:46
In an enclosed envelope.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
05:47
Yes
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
05:48
Yes
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
05:50
Not sorted in the mail. But, oh, my turn again.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
05:52
I have no idea what's going on. I have a really hard time playing cards and talking. And, oh, I’m very challenged.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
05:59
Sorry, we’re recording a podcast. Hold on a second. We’re actually playing Uno. We’re trying to like be fun. I'll catch him in a second, Cory. Sorry.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:06
You could have talked.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
06:07
That's Corey from Barbados. He's a super cool guy.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
06:09
Oh nice.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:10
Very cool. We’ll have to bring him back on.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
06:11
And they leave for a presentation in Barbados in September.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
06:13
Oh, that sounds ruff Steve.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
06:15
That sounds really terrible, but I'm gonna make it happen.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:18
Okay, so the next question, since we're in yellow, is leadership. Jen, what's the best advice you ever got?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
06:23
Sometimes taking things away, which feels hard to do, is actually saving them from themselves. So when I learned that saying no to a member, oh, you son of a! Oh, hey, look at that! Reverse back to you.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:37
Put that other one on top of that.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
06:38
Oh yeah.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
06:40
So which way is that?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:41
It's still just to.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
06:42
No, I think it reverses back.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:44
Did you put it on the same time? Reverse, reverse.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
06:46
Like isn't there like that? Reverse, reverse. Like what is it? Cupid Shuffle or something.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
06:50
Yeah, Cupid Shuffle.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
06:51
So in the credit, in the credit union world, saying no to somebody is is something that's very challenging for us. And I remember having a really hard time limiting somebody's services. And feeling like I was a detriment to their day to day life. And when somebody stopped and explained it to me, that actually you know,
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
07:12
By the way, that draw, you have to draw a couple
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
07:13
How many do I have to draw for now? I can't play cards and talk fraud. How about two? Is that okay? Sure. We have no idea what we're doing.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
07:21
Sure, but it is your turn.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
07:22
But that was the best. And you can't win them all. You know, there's always going to be something that slips through the cracks. There's always going to be somebody upset. And maybe, you know, what they're upset about is something that you either have no control over, or maybe they're upset for good reason. But you don't always have to solve it or fix it. Sometimes it is just what it is, and you just do the best you can and try to help as many people as possible.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
07:44
I love that. How about you, Steve?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
07:45
Back to me. Or,
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
07:47
Yeah, I know. Just anyway. Yeah, no, it’s Jen’s turn.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
07:49
I have no idea what's happening.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
07:52
She’s picking up cards.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
07:53
Well, I have been.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
07:55
She’s collecting all 37. Alright So, it’s still on leadership, right?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
08:00
Yeah. But it’s not your turn.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
08:01
Oh God, darn it.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
08:02
But you can draw four, and the color is green. So, since we draw four, I'll do another. Would you rather? Would you rather eliminate? No, no, no. I don't want that. Would you rather have one hour with every CEO or one hour with every fraud analyst?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
08:21
A CDO?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
08:22
CEO
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
08:23
Oh, CEO.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
08:26
Fraud analyst. They're the front lines.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
08:29
They're seeing everything, right?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
08:30
That’s where I want to be. And try to stay there on a regular basis. We do have meetings with the CEO. I'm fortunate in a small organization. I do have FaceTime with the CEO once a month, so that that's helpful. But I could see, obviously, in Karen's world, you're not meeting the CEO, and if you are, it's probably not a good scenario.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
08:46
Oh, I've actually had a nice lunch with him one time. Oh, but it was with a group. I was going to say like fraud analyst, unless I just. I feel like, if obviously, if I was to meet with the CEO, it would be to try to explain yes the benefits and the and how fraud could be a business enabler when done correctly. And kind of reduce the negative connotation that like fraud and you, as we know, friction
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
09:21
We’re the naysayers all the time.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
09:22
Right. Is it my turn?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
09:24
Yeah
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
09:24
Yeah
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
09:25
Has been for like 20 minutes.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
09:26
Oh, that's not a zero. Got it. All right. Well, sorry.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
09:29
I know it was a would you rather, but I think that there is a benefit to both. So like Karen said, you know, making sure that the CEO is apprised of what's going on. And I think the human impact of fraud and scams on the member base is really, really important. But also, the fraud analysts are who are seeing those things in real time every day. So it's really important to have face time with both. [Ad Break (9:58) Finally, I'm so happy to share with you all that the Saturday Fraud Strategist is a podcast. What? Yeah, on top of my weekly newsletter, you could now listen to and watch me talk about my and hopefully your favorite topic, fraud strategy. And from time to time, I'll be hosting operators and founders to discuss where the industry is headed and what we fraud fighters should pay attention to. I must say, I'm super excited, and if I'm being honest, a bit nervous about all of this. I've been debating with myself whether to start a podcast for ages, kept putting it off, but now this is the result. So I guess there's no turning back. So if you want to join me for the ride, head over to Sardinia's website and subscribe now. Are you ready? Am I ready? We'll find out next Saturday.]
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
10:57
Yeah. So we skipped again. So we already talked about the one thing that's overhyped.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
11:02
Overshot.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
11:03
Would you? Ah, she, well okay then. So Karen is the ultimate winner of Uno for right now. But that doesn't mean that you will remain that champion.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
11:14
So if we play again. I will.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
11:15
Would you would you rather have unlimited budget or unlimited staffing?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
11:22
Well, I mean, budget.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
11:23
With budget, I can get all the staff I want.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
11:26
Well, yeah. With budget. So budget could be staffing?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
11:30
Do you budget for your staff?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
11:31
Maybe an unlimited budget for an unlimited time. I don’t know.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
11:34
Yeah. The one question that I also have in here is like, would you rather have an extra hour a day, or to do what you got to get done, or an extra analyst?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
11:47
An analyst, because I need a lot more than an hour. And I don't really want an extra. If I want an extra hour, I I hope that I could use it for
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
11:59
Personal stuff.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
12:00
Yeah.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
12:00
Outside of work.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
12:01
And that doesn’t,
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
12:02
No, I agree. I agree. Okay, let's see. Would you rather have every customer listen to fraud education or every executive understand fraud risk?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
12:11
Executive, I'm sorry, customers.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
12:12
Yeah
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
12:13
Because if you convince the executives, then you could convince them for their customers.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
12:17
Yeah, the education then comes after.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
12:19
And influence and invest in that.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
12:21
Yeah
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
12:22
Yeah
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
12:23
Education has impact, but it's minimal, right? If it worked, we wouldn't still have fraud, right? And we all have had customers who have been frauded once. Receive the education, and continue the same activity, right? So, I’m not saying we should get rid of education. We should understand that it is a small piece of the puzzle.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
12:43
And you really have to do the education and like, deep dive of the exact examples before anything happens. If you, the customer, the problem is the scam is like, customers don't think they're being scammed. So you can educate them about scams. They're like, "Well, that's not me.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
12:58
That's where the limiting, that’s where the limited services. And, you know, helping individuals understand that you’re not doing it to punish them. You're doing it to save them.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
13:06
Yeah, yes.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
13:07
I agree with that. Yup. Okay. Um, I kind of like the "Would you rather" questions. It seems to kind of get us really talking. Would you rather, this is specifically for Steve, would you rather fight check fraud for the rest of your life, or or fight synthetic identity fraud?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
13:27
Whoa, that's a good one. So, I think I'd rather fight synthetic identity fraud because at least that stuff, the thrill of the hunt and the challenge. And it's evolved dramatically over the last 20 years and will continue to evolve in the next 20 years. And while check fraud has been enhanced with you know some of the printing and AI and technology. It's still, it's basic. It's still the same format. It's still check fraud, right? The concept hasn't changed. It's counterfeit washed, right? Double presented. It's the same stuff that would have isolated. Synthetic is it has changed, and will continue to change. And one thing the next evolution of synthetics that we're I'm looking at right now is, you know, synthetic agents. We talk about agentic AI, now. And are creating a matching agent that makes my synthetic identity almost life, right? So
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
14:15
For hypothetical synthetic agents?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
14:16
Or I don't, potentially I may have three of them. Yes, but now I have an agent who's doing the work of some machine learning I built before and some code. So now I have an agent who's doing things, boosting, reading, checking emails, all those fun things. Right. So that's the next part. Like, okay, now we have identity. Okay, great, but now we have a matching agent that looks and appears lively.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
14:41
So you're excited to facilitate the fraud that the fraudsters are,
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
14:48
So I've always said this
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
14:49
For educational purposes
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
14:50
Correct. For educational purposes. And I think to understand the fraud, I'm not saying you have to commit it. But you have to be involved in it in some way, shape, or form.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamomt
14:59
Like 100 percent
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
15:02
Oh, we're playing again? I just picked up the cards. I go like, oh, what are we doing here?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
15:05
Oh, wait, no. I'm not playing because then I'm undefeated.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
15:06
She’s one of those.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
15:08
Yeah, no, no, no. Come on Karen.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
15:10
I'm really grateful for the many years that I spent, staff level. Just because I was infiltrated in all of those member conversations, and I feel like it taught me so much. Having those conversations every single day for so many years.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
15:22
Oh yeah.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
15:23
Very beneficial.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
15:25
I can agree. Okay, Karen. Would you rather have perfect authentication or perfect transaction monitoring? And please play a card gal because we're waiting on you to start the game. Okay. Back to you Karen.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
15:40
I would, so I was, oh it is okay.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
15:43
I know we cannot talk and play.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
15:45
I got skipped again. Or it was a reverse. I'm just going to sit over here and look pretty.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
15:48
Wait, did the reverse work?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
15:50
Yeah. Karen Boyer(15:51) Which way are we going?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
15:52
We're going this way now.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
15:53
Now we’re going this way?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
15:54
And I’m just waiting on, now nope. Now we're going back that way.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
15:55
Oh, jeez.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
15:58
So perfect authentication.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
16:00
So perfect authentication. Perfect authentication, because if you can verify whoever is doing the transaction. And in theory, one you eliminate, again perfect meaning it’s actually working. You could eliminate account takeover to an extent. You eliminate impersonations to an extent. And then you're left with first party fraud. And if you can verify that they are who they are, then unless they're synthetic, then you can understand who you're targeting, who the true suspects are.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
16:29
Yeah, at least reduce a lot of it.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
16:31
Correct.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
16:34
And then you have more resources to focus on what you weren't able to reduce.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
16:40
Correct.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
16:42
Okay, so Jen.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
16:43
I'm familiar with the concept of more resources.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
16:46
Yeah. Okay. Jen, from the practitioner side, and Karen, that's still back to you. Would you rather catch fraud before the payment leaves or recover every dollar?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
16:56
Oh, okay. I definitely want to stop it before it ever leaves. Because the recovery portion takes a lot of time, effort, resources. And it's, although you're asking me if I were to be able to recover all of it. I've been in that situation where I've recovered all of it, and it's taken me a lot of time. And a lot of resources. And indemnification agreements. And breach of warranty claims. And begging and pleading, and networking.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
17:19
And reputation
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
17:20
And reputational risk. Absolutely.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
17:22
How did you let this happen?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
17:24
Absolutely. Yep. We're stopping fraud.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
17:27
No, she drew two. It’s your turn.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
17:29
Hailey drew two for me since I wasn't paying attention. I can only talk. I can't play cards.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
17:33
Steve, would you rather trust AI to write your SARS or trust AI to investigate your alerts?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
17:39
Oh, I know mine.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
17:41
SARS.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
17:42
You've already done your investigation. You’re just writing an error about it.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
17:44
Obviously we have to QA the SAR we do, but that capability is already there with a lot of providers. I think all of us have been down the SAR journey of writing 10, 20 thousand SARS over our, course of our careers. I'm okay with not writing another one.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
17:58
Sounds about right. I am also okay with that.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
18:02
I guess I can pick these magic things up.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
18:04
Karen, would you rather explain every AI decision to regulators or explain every manual decision to executives?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
18:11
I know.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
18:14
Well, if it's a manual decision, it is because AI didn't either work or it's not compatible. So I'm gonna go with the manual. Because I don't, I feel like regulators still have to, it depends what regulator. But I also think that they have a bit more learning to do about what AI really is. If we’re falling into the gap of any type of automation. Like RPA is AI. Like that’s not, like that's not, that not AI. That’s not machine learning.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
18:47
No, it's a process.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
18:48
Yeah, yeah.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
18:49
It’s an automated process.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
18:50
That's my answer.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
18:54
Uh, draw for and pick a color.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
18:58
I just picked up half the deck, like two minutes.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
19:00
Yeah, can you beep it out?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:02
Yeah. Um, we’ll make it do a cha-ching sound.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
19:07
Ooh, now we're gonna have fun.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
19:10
For the record, I didn’t want to play. Oh, wait. For the record, I’m undefeated. This is my synthetic identity playing.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:17
Uh huh. Jen, would you rather have an AI assistant that never sleeps or a fraud analyst who never quits?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:22
Oh my gosh, that is a good question.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:25
What was the color?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:26
I don't know. What color did you choose?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:28
You didn't tell us the color. What color?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:29
You need to pick a color.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
19:31
I pick a color?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:32
You got the draw four.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:33
Yeah, you put the draw four.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:35
I put the draw four down. You know, you pick the color.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:36
No, you pick the color.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:37
I pick the color?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:38
If you put the draw four down, you pick the color.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
19:40
This is so much fun.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:43
You guys are making this way more complicated. I guess nobody else has ADHD like me. Okay, yellow, she says.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
19:48
We're more into dice games in my house.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
19:50
Yellow it is.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
19:52
Oh, thank God. Okay. So, Jen, the question is, would you rather have an AI assistant that never sleeps, or a fraud analyst who never quits?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
20:04
Okay, I know you guys are all three going to be extremely surprised by this answer, but a fraud analyst that never quits. Because I am fueled by human interactions and I thrive in helping people the way I feel I like I was helped in this industry. So I love being able to,
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:23
It's a pretty easy question, honestly, because AI assists never sleep anyway.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
20:27
Yeah, that's true.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:29
Did I get skipped here?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
20:30
No, it's your turn now.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
20:31
But if they did get, Steve.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:33
Okay
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
20:34
If they did, yeah. But if they did.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
20:35
But yeah, no, I think
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:36
That's really the fun of it. I don't know what that card, misprint anyway.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
20:39
No, it can be whatever color you want.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:40
Oh, sweet.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
20:41
No. You're supposed to sharpie in something.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
20:42
Yeah, I hate those.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
20:43
So we're always going to need analysts in this industry, and I think that, this is growing the next generation of analysts.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
20:48
No, so this is actually an obstacle course. So you have to complete an obstacle course.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:52
Oh, okay. Yeah, we'll do that after dinner tonight. We'll do that.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
20:56
Okay, and a color.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
20:57
Blue.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
20:58
Of course it’s blue. No freaking blues.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
21:02
I’m trying to make this the longest game of Uno ever.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
21:04
Okay, well here, hold on, I got it. No, we're gonna change it back.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
21:09
Okay, is it my turn?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
21:10
It's your turn now. Okay, let's see. Oh, conference edition. Would you rather miss every keynote or every networking event.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
21:20
Keynote easily.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
21:22
Yeah. I mean, network is gold.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
21:23
While you do get some nuggets of gold in the keynotes, most of your networking, all of your networking is done from there, right? So yeah, network.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
21:32
Double skip.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
21:33
I've never seen that before in my life.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
21:34
Matter of fact, we're missing a keynote right now.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
21:39
To be on the Fraud Forward podcast. If I was wrong,
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
21:43
Oh no, I don't.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
21:44
What are we doing?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
21:44
The double skip.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
21:45
I forgot. Hold on.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
21:46
I've never heard of that before.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
21:47
I’m going to build an AI agent to play Uno.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
21:52
I'm pretty. This goes out. It comes out.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
21:54
I don't know. Is it? Am I after her?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
21:55
I don't know because you keep changing the rules of the reverses.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
21:58
If you are watching this, you have earned your place in heaven.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:02
Or listened to it. Could you imagine just listening and not seeing? Okay,
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
22:06
I just reversed.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
22:07
On top of you?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:09
which means it went back this way. But then she says it's a double reverse, so that means it goes back.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
22:14
Oh, double skip. There skips. We're past that.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
22:17
All right, just put the card down.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:19
Steve, Steve. Let’s reverse it back to Seve.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
22:23
Wow, now we have a shun.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:25
Okay. Oh, I know the answer to this one. Would you rather forget your business cards or lose your phone charger? Do you even have business cards? Yeah, we have LinkedIn.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
22:34
Who needs business cards? Hailey Windham (2235) I did just get some. I was very excited about this.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
22:37
I'll give you a gift. Pick whatever color you want. Karen Boyer 22:39) Is it me? I think it's going this way again.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
22:43
Well, whoever's turn you want to. Pick whatever color you want.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:44
Red
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
22:45
That’s fine, go red.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:46
Uno.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
22:47
We're trying to lose this game as fast as possible.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
22:49
Is it my turn or?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
22:50
Yeah, it's your turn. Okay. Would you rather present to 2000 people or record a live podcast? Trick question.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
22:57
Well, obviously it's a podcast, but we're recording podcast in front of 2000 people.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
23:02
Well, we're gonna do that. Let's do that. Okay. Would you rather win the conference giveaway or meet your fraud hero? Mark Evans was just here. That would have been the perfect.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:12
That would have been the perfect question. I've already met 97% of my fraud heroes.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
23:17
Same.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:18
Few of them are sitting right here. All three of them are sitting right here.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:21
Shameless plug.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:22
Right?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:24
Well, depends on what the conference prize is.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
23:29
I mean, we could meet anybody on our own I guess, technically.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:31
That’s true.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:32
I mean, I can always find other locations and meet my heroes. I can only win a car once.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:36
True. I didn't think about that.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:38
I don't know if I ship that back home, but we'll figure that out.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:40
I've never seen a car given away at a conference, so you know, I didn't think that big.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:44
It happens at RSA.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
23:45
It does?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:45
Yeah.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
23:46
It does.
Off Camera Speaker
23:47
There’s no money on the table.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
23:48
No, we're just recording a podcast. You're good.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
23:52
We’re playing with stablecoin.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
23:55
Thank you. Okay, let's see.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
24:00
You're “Recording In Progress” is up there, too.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:03
Yeah. Okay. Who’s go is it?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
24:04
You know what?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:05
Go for it, Karen. Blue. Shit. You have blue.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
24:09
I was being nice. I told you you could pick a color.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:11
Oh, you told me.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
24:12
And she stole it.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:14
I didn't steal it.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
24:15
She borrowed it.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:16
You. You said whoever.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:17
There's been a lot of fraud committed in this situation, I think.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:20
Okay, let's see. Would you rather answer emails all day or attend meetings all day?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
24:26
Oh God.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:28
Neither
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
24:32
Emails. I will. Because I attend meetings all day, and I can't get to the emails. And so then I can't ever, it just becomes a cycle.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:42
Yeah.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:43
I would rather attend meetings because my meetings are with credit union customers, and I really enjoy them.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
24:48
Well, it does depend on what the meetings are. Like if it was like this,
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:50
Yeah
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:51
You don't have any sixes?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
24:53
Nuh uh.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
24:55
That's a lot of sixes. It kind of makes me nervous.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
24:58
Can I use that?
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
24:59
Yes.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
25:00
Well, that’s a six. Whatever.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:01
Uh, no. Just make it whatever color.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
25:03
Yeah, color.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
25:05
Well, let me say I have the rainbow over here. Let's go green.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:07
Okay, good. It's the only color I don't, oh perfect. Reverse it back to. There you go.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
25:12
Oh sweet.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:13
Double up. You've got multiples.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
25:14
All right. I’ve got to be mean.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:16
Would you rather solve fraud with spreadsheets forever, or never touch Excel again?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
25:23
I love Excel. I think it's underrated. People, people, obviously it like, I’ll just see. I mean, there's some things that you just.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:34
I know. You just double draw four’d me. Do you see this?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
25:37
Yeah, but you're just a two. Because I drew two.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:40
No, no, she went back on top of you. She put two, draw twos down.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
25:45
This is house rules.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
25:46
Your turn, rules.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
25:48
I think we're just gonna just play it however.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
25:50
I want to finish. I want to hear you finish your thought about Excel. I'm very, I'm intrigued.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
25:54
I just come back to Excel a lot.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
25:55
I do too.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
25:57
I haven't found a replacement for Excel. Excel's where I double check what ChatGPT gives me inaccurate numbers to, and then I yell at Chat GPTs like you lie to me. He's like, you're right.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
26:07
Are you mean to your Chat GPT?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
26:09
Only what it's mean to me.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
26:10
Okay. Yeah.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
26:11
Did you read that article recently about being nice to your Chat GPT?
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
26:13
No, but I've had that conversation with people. I am uber polite.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
26:18
I'm uber polite. Please, thank you. Yes.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
26:21
You're a southerner.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
26:24
Do we play poker? Because I have a straight.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
26:28
Straight flush.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
26:30
Wrong game, Steve.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
26:31
I'm trying. Not very well, apparently.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
26:34
Um, yeah, I just feel like there's always a place for Excel. And sometimes, Excel allows you to see patterns that regular alert systems don't.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
26:50
Yeah, yeah.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
26:51
Sometimes they take the alert system, export it to Excel, and then
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
26:56
Do you have the draw two?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
26:58
I do not.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
26:59
Are you sure? Because you can make Karen draw four..
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
27:01
I don't.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
27:02
Because you got rid of them.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
27:03
My goal is now to take as many cards as possible, so nobody else wins. Oh, that hurts. You're welcome.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
27:14
. Yella.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
27:15
Yellow.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
27:16
Yella.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
27:17
Who's um, what was the question we were at? I don't remember.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
27:20
Excel. My love for Excel.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
27:21
Yeah. Oh yeah. Do you disagree? Do you? What are your feelings on Excel?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
27:27
Well, I just. The way the question is,
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
27:30
What color is it Jen?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
27:31
It's yella.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
27:31
Yellow.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
27:32
I don't want to work directly off Excel. I just don't want to . Don't not want to never touch it again.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
27:37
Yeah, no, I'm with you. So are you an Excel guy, Steve?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
27:41
Yeah, living and breathing Excel is pretty much where it is at.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
27:47
You’re an Excel guy?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
27:48
Yeah, you had to be. That was our AI.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
27:51
Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, that was our dispute resolution system. That was our BSA appliance program, was all Excel. Yeah, I think
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
28:00
Plus, what can’t you do in it? Right?
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
28:02
She just won.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
28:03
Thank God.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
28:04
Did you say Uno?
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
28:05
She did. She did. We recorded it, by the way. So we can go back and watch. Go back and
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
28:10
Yeah. Evidence.
Headshot of a smiling man with gray hair in a blue suit jacket.
Steve Lenderman
28:11
I got to go deal with some, uh, stuff.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
28:15
Yeah, understood. So I appreciate you guys for for joining me. This is obviously just a little fun episode that we could do. It's going to be massive amounts of editing. Massive amounts of editing. Thank you, Vini. So I think, let's see. This is what I wrote. You know, this is the kind of perfect metaphor for fraud. Just when you think you figured everything out, the rules change. Someone plays a wild. Someone drops a draw four, and somehow you start over.
Smiling woman with blonde hair and glasses wearing a white shirt.
Jen Lamont
28:39
Karen and Haley disagree on the rules.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Lamont
28:40
And don’t forget, we were out of line by definition.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
28:44
Yeah, there you go. There you go. So thanks to Karen, Steve, and Jen. Of course, for hanging out, with me. And remember, stay vigilant, stay informed, and keep moving fraud forward.
Smiling blonde woman in a dark blazer.
Karen Boyer
28:53
Thank you all.
A blonde woman in a black blazer smiles slightly against a purple background.
Hailey Windham
29:00
Thanks for listening to Fraud Forward. Remember, every conversation, every connection, and every insight moves our industry one step closer. If today's episode sparked an idea, share it with your team or tag me on LinkedIn. I love hearing how you're moving Fraud Forward in your own organization. Until next time, stay curious, stay resilient, keep moving fraud forward.
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