#11642 min
E aí, combatentes da fraude? Sejam bem-vindos de volta ao Fraud Forward!
Este episódio foi gravado ao vivo e sem filtros no espaço da conferência IAFCI International, em Nashville. Não consegui reunir tudo o que adorei num único encontro bem organizado. Em vez disso, trago-vos as conversas espontâneas que aconteceram por lá e que, para mim, estão a ajudar a desvendar a fraude e a unir quem a combate.
O grande destaque aqui é Michael Perez, o primeiro ex-fraudador que se tornou combatente à fraude a participar do Fraud Forward. O que aconteceu na sua história é o que você mais vai querer ouvir. Agentes federais reconheceram que ele seria mais útil ensinando a prevenir fraudes do que ficando de fora. Para além da história de Michael, há um passeio pelo espaço da conferência com um agente aposentado da divisão de crimes cibernéticos do FBI que se tornou autor, um inspetor dos Correios que fala sobre como tirar partido das relações, um detetive da polícia de Nova York que aborda o desmantelamento de esquemas de fraude em grande escala ligados à lavagem de dinheiro e dois investigadores do Departamento de Administração Penitenciária da Carolina do Sul que falam sobre as sofisticadas investigações de crimes financeiros realizadas dentro das prisões.
O que você vai ouvir neste episódio:
- A história completa de Michael Perez: como funcionava sua operação de clonagem de cartões, o que levou à sua prisão e como, desde então, ele desenvolveu ferramentas que ajudam a detectar exatamente o tipo de fraude que costumava cometer.
- A visão de um agente aposentado do FBI especializado em crimes cibernéticos sobre por que quase 90% das fraudes financeiras que investigou poderiam ter sido evitadas e sobre a mentalidade de treinamento em cibersegurança que ele ensina atualmente.
- Como a estrutura enxuta da agência de um inspetor postal torna a construção de relacionamentos e a colaboração em conferências sobre fraudes uma questão de sobrevivência, e não apenas algo desejável.
- A abordagem de um detetive da NYPD para desmantelar esquemas de fraude em grande escala e identificar alvos de investigações de lavagem de dinheiro, além de uma verificação real do bem-estar de uma pessoa idosa vítima de fraude, viabilizada inteiramente pelas conexões do capítulo da IAFCI.
- O que os investigadores penitenciários da Carolina do Sul estão descobrindo ao investigar crimes financeiros praticados por meio de celulares contrabandeados nas prisões, incluindo fraudes viabilizadas por IA, como documentos e vídeos deepfake, além de fraudes em pagamentos entre pessoas ligadas a crimes financeiros cometidos por detentos.
- Por que o modelo de colaboração da IAFCI entre as autoridades policiais e os bancos, que permite que cada lado participe das sessões do outro, é constantemente apontado pelos participantes da conferência como um verdadeiro diferencial.
- Os temas recorrentes em praticamente todas as conversas sobre esquemas de fraude transnacionais que operam em larga escala e por que a comunidade de combate à fraude — e não uma ferramenta ou equipe específica — continua sendo a maior vantagem dos profissionais da área.
Você deveria ouvir este episódio se:
- É um profissional de fraude, risco ou crimes financeiros que deseja ter uma noção real e prática de como são, de fato, as conversas na IAFCI.
- É alguém que tem curiosidade em saber o que um ex-fraudador, agora combatente de fraudes, pode ensinar ao setor que um investigador tradicional não pode.
- Faz parte de uma equipa antifraude ou é investigador das autoridades policiais e procura exemplos práticos de como a atuação e a colaboração dos bancos dão resultados.
- Trabalham em áreas relacionadas à clonagem de cartões, investigações de crimes financeiros em prisões ou fraudes contra idosos e querem conhecer exemplos de casos reais.
- Atuam no combate à fraude, já se sentiram isolados em sua função e querem se lembrar de que a comunidade de combate à fraude transforma o que é possível.
Notas do episódio
Michael Perez: Da clonagem de cartões às ferramentas de prevenção contra fraudes
Michael Perez, cofundador e CTO da Micclo LLC, explicou-me em detalhe como funcionou a sua operação entre 2015 e 2017. Instalava dispositivos de clonagem, imprimia cartões clonados e percorria o país para levantar dinheiro com os dados roubados, utilizando PINs, códigos postais e credenciais de cartões de frota. A sua detenção deveu-se a um erro invulgar: enviou um ficheiro de dados sem a proteção VPN que habitualmente utilizava. O que aconteceu depois é a parte mais surpreendente. Os agentes dos Serviços Secretos reconheceram o seu valor como formador, em vez de o reinserirem como informador. Essa decisão levou Michael a desenvolver duas ferramentas comerciais — um dispositivo de verificação de dados de cartões e um detetor de dispositivos de clonagem —, ambas atualmente utilizadas em todo o nosso setor. É a prova de que as mesmas competências que fazem de alguém um bom autor de fraudes podem torná-lo ainda melhor no combate à fraude, se alguém lhe der essa oportunidade.
Bryan Bennett: Por que a informação certa pode completar o quadro
Bryan Bennett, investigador de crimes financeiros da cidade de Thornton, no Colorado, e especialista certificado em combate ao branqueamento de capitais, deu-me uma perspetiva, ao nível de um caso concreto, sobre como os esquemas de fraude transnacional se desenrolam efetivamente quando passam a ser alvo de uma investigação local. O que mais me marcou foi uma mensagem que ouvi repetidamente ao longo de toda a conferência: os investigadores de fraude raramente estão longe da verdade. Só precisam da informação certa para completar o quadro. É precisamente por isso que partilhar o que sabe, mesmo que pareça algo insignificante, é tão importante.
Scott Augenbaum: a defesa de um agente aposentado do FBI por um treinamento de cibersegurança bem-feito
Scott Augenbaum passou 24 anos no FBI, trabalhando sobretudo em crimes cibernéticos, antes de se reformar e fundar a CyberSecure Mindset. A sua mensagem central é direta, e é por isso que gosto tanto dele. Quase 90% das fraudes financeiras que investigou poderiam ter sido evitadas se os utilizadores finais tivessem recebido previamente as informações certas. Desde que se reformou, Scott tem-se dedicado a escrever e a dar formação em cibersegurança com base no que chama de mentalidade de segurança cibernética, e todo o seu argumento se resume ao seguinte: a maior fragilidade estrutural das autoridades policiais é só intervirem depois de a vítima já ter perdido o seu dinheiro. Se conseguirmos antecipar-nos a isso, mudamos tudo.
Eric Shen: Por que as pequenas agências são as que mais apostam no networking
Eric Shen, inspetor-chefe do Serviço de Inspeção Postal dos EUA, explicou-me por que envia entre 50 e 80 inspetores às conferências da IAFCI todos os anos. A colaboração em conferências sobre fraude e o aproveitamento das relações estabelecidas numa ampla rede de membros são, muitas vezes, a única forma de uma pequena equipa investigar eficazmente fraudes financeiras. O conselho que dá à sua própria equipa quando chegam é um que vou adotar para sempre: isto não é um baile do sexto ano. Não fiquem amontoados num canto com as pessoas que já conhecem. Vão fazer uma nova amizade. Pode ser isso que salve o vosso próximo caso.
Daniel Alessandrino: Um caso de fraude contra idosos solucionado graças a contatos feitos em uma conferência
Daniel Alessandrino, detetive de 1.ª classe e agente de uma força-tarefa da Unidade de Fraudes Especiais do NYPD, concentra-se em esquemas de fraude de grande escala. As suas investigações abrangem gangues de rua, redes de lavagem de dinheiro envolvendo cidadãos chineses e grupos de fraude da África Ocidental. Ele partilhou comigo uma história que é realmente importante destacar. O capítulo das Carolinas da IAFCI entrou em contacto através da sua rede depois de detetar levantamentos rápidos e alarmantes da conta de reforma de uma vítima idosa. Um único contacto com Daniel levou a uma verificação do bem-estar da vítima, por suspeita de fraude contra idosos, ainda no mesmo dia. Isto não é uma hipótese sobre o poder do networking. É a avó de alguém, em segurança, porque um grupo de profissionais de combate à fraude se conhecia pelo nome.
Travis Cox e Matt McIntyre: o que está acontecendo dentro das prisões com celulares contrabandeados e IA
Travis Cox, líder nas áreas de aplicação da lei e investigação no Gabinete do Inspetor-Geral do Departamento de Administração Penitenciária da Carolina do Sul, e Matt McIntyre, analista de inteligência no mesmo órgão, são coautores de Cellblock Empires, The Hidden Economy Behind Bars. Juntos, eles descreveram uma faceta da fraude financeira na qual a maioria de nós nunca pensa. Todos os anos, cerca de 3.000 celulares contrabandeados são apreendidos nas prisões da Carolina do Sul. Muitos são usados para aplicar fraudes em pagamentos entre pessoas, comprar ou vender identidades roubadas por apenas US$ 150 e criar fraudes com o uso de IA, como vídeos deepfake e documentos falsos. A mensagem deles aos bancos que realizam investigações com inteligência de dispositivos foi simples — e quero que todas as equipes antifraude realmente a coloquem em prática: incluam o máximo possível de informações de identificação pessoal em qualquer denúncia de fraude, pois um único número de telefone ou endereço de e-mail pode ser o elo que faltava para conectar uma fraude financeira cometida fora da prisão a um detento que já está sendo investigado. Às vezes, aquele pequeno detalhe que você quase deixa de incluir é exatamente o que outra pessoa precisava.
Principais conclusões
- Um fraudador que passou a combater fraudes traz algo que nenhum de nós consegue fingir. A experiência de Michael com clonagem de cartões permite-lhe identificar os pontos cegos que os restantes de nós só conseguem tentar adivinhar.
- As investigações de fraude da inspeção postal dependem de um capital de confiança construído muito antes de um caso chegar à mesa de alguém, e não de relações improvisadas depois do ocorrido.
- A fraude financeira praticada por detentos é mais organizada do que a maioria dos bancos imagina, operando por meio de aplicativos de pagamentos entre pessoas, identidades compradas e celulares contrabandeados que nunca aparecem nos sistemas tradicionais de detecção de riscos.
- Os golpes com criptomoedas e os esquemas de fraude transnacional já não são assuntos distintos. São a mesma coisa, apenas com mais zeros e mais fronteiras envolvidas.
- A prevenção de fraudes entre diferentes setores só funciona quando as autoridades policiais e os bancos realmente participam das sessões uns dos outros, em vez de apenas trocarem cartões de visita e darem o assunto por encerrado.
- As investigações de crimes financeiros em prisões precisam cada vez mais das mesmas ferramentas utilizadas em qualquer caso de fraude bancária, especialmente inteligência de dispositivos e disposição para compartilhar informações de identificação pessoal (PII) entre setores.
- Uma única investigação de lavagem de dinheiro pode abranger gangues de rua, redes de cidadãos chineses e grupos de fraude da África Ocidental, todos ao mesmo tempo e interligados.
- O verdadeiro superpoder da comunidade de combate à fraude não é uma plataforma nem uma ferramenta. É haver alguém disposto a pegar no telefone antes mesmo de precisar.
Conclusão final
Se há um fio condutor em todas as conversas deste episódio, é que o combate à fraude não acontece de forma isolada — seja um ex-fraudador que se tornou combatente da fraude e se reinventou como educador, uma pequena agência que amplia seu alcance por meio de relacionamentos ou um único contato feito em uma conferência que leva diretamente ao resgate de uma vítima. “Unplugging Fraud”, o tema da IAFCI deste ano, não significa realmente desconectar nada. Trata-se de conectar entre si os integrantes da comunidade de combate à fraude. A prevenção intersetorial de fraudes continua sendo a única vantagem deste setor que os fraudadores — mesmo aqueles que operam golpes com criptomoedas ou esquemas de fraude transnacional em grande escala — não conseguem reproduzir.
Recursos e links do episódio
Michael Perez
Cofundador e CTO da Micclo LLC
Bryan Benett
Investigador de Crimes Financeiros na Prefeitura de Thornton, Colorado
Especialista Certificado em Prevenção à Lavagem de Dinheiro (CAMLS)
Investigador Certificado de Crimes Financeiros
Eric Shen
Serviço de Inspeção Postal dos EUA, inspetor-chefe
Daniel Alessandrino
Detetive de 1ª Classe, agente da força-tarefa do Esquadrão de Fraudes Especiais do NYPD
Scott Augenbaum
Agente aposentado do FBI
Instrutor de prevenção a crimes cibernéticos na CyberSecure Mindset
Travis Cox
Líder em aplicação da lei e investigações
Gabinete do Inspetor-Geral, Departamento de Administração Penitenciária da Carolina do Sul
Autor de Impérios das celas: a economia oculta por trás das grades
Matt McIntyre
Analista de Inteligência no Gabinete do Inspetor-Geral do Departamento de Correções da Carolina do Sul
Autor de Impérios dos Blocos Prisionais: A Economia Oculta por Trás das Grades
Conecte-se com Hailey Windham, CFCS | LinkedIn
Apresentadora do podcast Fraud Forward
Líder da comunidade bancária na Sardine
Especialista certificada em crimes financeiros (CFCS)
Destaque do setor de cooperativas de crédito em 2023, CU Magazine
Prêmio de Melhoria Contínua, SAFE Federal Credit Union, 2023
20 melhores profissionais com menos de 40 anos, The Sumter Item, 2022
Guests
Episode transcript
Hailey Windham
00:06
So, we are about to make uh fraud forward history here at Nashville at the IAFCI um international conference. Um I'm here with Michael Perez um who is the first ever former fraudster to appear on Fraud Forward. So, Michael, thank you so much for for joining me today.
Michael
00:23
And thank you for having me.
Hailey
00:24
Daniel, thank you so much for joining me on Fraud Forward.
Daniel
00:26
Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you today.
Hailey
00:28
Dude, I'm so excited to have you on. First of all, because of obviously what you do and where you work and also because you were first runner up Award winner for law enforcement officer of the year for the international IAFCI conference. Like dude, you're amazing.
Hailey Windham
00:41
Eric, thank you so much for joining me on Fraud Forward. It's been what, a couple weeks?
Eric
00:45
Just a few weeks. Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Hailey
00:48
Of course. Of course. Anytime, any chance to get to talk to you. Um I learned so much the last time that we had a conversation and now to bring you on and live. Uh at least for us is live. Um, it's just an honor to have you on again.
Eric
01:01
The pleasure is all mine.
Hailey
01:02
Brian, thank you so much for joining me on Fraud Forward.
Brian
01:05
No, thanks for having me. You've been you've been so busy. Everybody's lining up for this podcast.
Hailey
01:09
Ah you flatter me.
Brian
01:11
I had to pretend to be a janitor just to get in.
Hailey
01:13
Oh, stop. Stop. No, I'm so grateful that you agreed uh to join me. Obviously, for multiple reasons. One, just because you're such a great guy. Um, but two, you were just honored yesterday at the awards luncheon uh with the president's award uh for international IAFCI. Uh, congratulations.
Brian
01:30
Thank you. Thank you very much. That was a it was a shock.
Hailey
01:33
I, not a shock.
Hailey
01:34
Okay, we are here at the IAFCI and we are in the podcast lounge. This is the first ever podcast lounge that I've been a part of. I don't know about you guys, but I'm happy to have you on Fraud Forward today. We have Travis Cox and Matt McIntyre. Thank you both for joining me.
Travis
01:46
Yeah, thanks for having us. Yeah, as a matter of fact, this is our first and uh glad to to be breaking the egg with you.
Hailey
01:52
Thank you. Much much appreciated.
Hailey
01:54
Scott, thank you so much for joining me on Fraud Forward. I'm so happy to have you.
Scott
01:57
It is so great to be here. Do you see the big smile on my face?
Hailey
02:00
I do. I do.
Scott
02:01
That is because I am retired from the FBI.
Hailey
02:05
So, what you're saying is is that we should all be envious of you.
Scott
02:08
Well, if you would have start, I mean I got into the FBI just because my mother filled out an application when I was 20 years old. Became an agent when I was 26. Spent most of my crime, most of my career working cyber crime, and I retired on my 50th birthday to do what I love to do.
Hailey
02:25
Which is what?
Scott
02:27
Teaching people what I've learned during my career to explain to them that almost 90% of what I dealt with easily could have been prevented if my end users were only armed with the right information. I even wrote a book about that called The Secret to Cyber Security. And if you're looking to read a good book by an FBI agent who's really smart, saved the day, got a lot of people's money back, you got the wrong person on your podcast.
Hailey
02:58
I was expecting you to say I'd finally found the one.
Scott
03:00
No, because let me just tell you, during my career with the FBI, I wasn't the hero. I came in time and time again. And let me tell you what I've learned. First of it, none of my victims ever expected to be a victim. They didn't think they fit the victim profile. When the bad guys stole their money or data or they stole some poor sweet little old lady's life savings, the FBI was not getting it back. And we can explain why. Putting the bad guys in jail is even harder because today's cyber criminals are located overseas in countries that do not cooperate with us.
Hailey
03:36
Yeah.
Scott
03:37
But what I discovered was most of it could have been prevented. So that's what I've been doing the last for the past nine years, teaching people what I call the cyber secure mindset.
Hailey
03:46
Well, I love that. We are definitely going to have more conversations than just the one today. Uh because I want to bring you on to the podcast for a long form episode obviously uh for reasons that are very clear here in this conversation.
Scott
03:58
Well, I have another four hours. What we
Hailey
04:00
Well, let's just sit down.
Scott
04:01
Who cares about Jeff? I mean
Hailey
04:03
I mean Jeff Taylor's next in line, but we'll just let him he can just relax.
Scott
04:06
No, this is awesome and I would love it because I have one goal and that is to help keep a million people safe for the next and the next 5 years. Because in law enforcement we get involved after the fall. When somebody loses their money, that's when we get involved. But if most of the stuff could be prevented, we got to really work on that. And I don't see anyone who owns that area.
Hailey
04:31
Yeah. I don't see anyone also uh jumping up and down trying to own it. Uh take ownership of that. And unfortunately we are in this space where it feels like it's kind of a tug-of-war. Like um who do we want, or a hot potato game, who do we want to pass blame on. That they can now pick up the the slack and move on. But the real issues like you said is trying to get in front of it.
Scott
04:51
And here's the thing that I see that tends to piss off a lot of people, we keep spending more and more money on products and services and the problem keeps It's getting worse. So, what does that mean?
Hailey
05:03
Yeah.
Scott
05:04
Means what we're doing isn't working. But if most stuff could be prevented, you got to put a little elbow room in grease in. And I look forward to another conversation with you.
Hailey
05:12
Thank you so much. I'd love to know um obviously we're here at the IAFCI today. Is there anything in particular that you would want anyone in the audience that maybe hasn't joined the IAFCI or hasn't been a part of it before? What do you think about the conference and about the organization as a whole?
Scott
05:25
This is so important because one of the things that I've learned with the FBI is it takes a community to stay safe. It's networking with other people from around the country, meeting people, getting that one key piece of information. And if you're a young investigator, all it takes is a little curiosity and a spark and you can make a difference.
Hailey
05:47
So true. Scott, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.
Scott
05:50
Thank you.
Hailey
05:50
Okay. So, we are here at the IAFCI International Conference in Nashville. I'd love to know your thoughts. What obviously though I think you might be a little bit biased. I believe I if I heard correctly, you were one of the uh co-chairs of the conference committee.
Eric
06:06
Yes, that is correct. I had the pleasure of serving as a co-chair for the IAFCI conference. So, uh I think it's a great conference.
Hailey
06:13
I mean, I think you did a job.
Eric
06:15
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Hailey
06:16
You and the committee did phenomenal. This is I've gotten a lot of positive feedback.
Eric
06:20
Excellent. It was a team effort. It really was.
Hailey
06:22
Yeah. Um, so, uh, one of the questions that I really wanted to ask while I'm here at the IAFCI is why the IAFCI? Like what what makes you come back every year? I know that you're also on the advisory board, but what specifically just draws you into the IAFCI?
Eric
06:37
Well, a little history for at least our agency, the Postal Inspection Service. We have always had a really good relationship with the IAFCI just because of the people. Uh we are a pretty small agency, 2,000. Uh and that's not all investigators and what they do is they know they have to leverage relationships, especially when it comes to working financial crimes. And with 8,000 members, it's pretty awesome to to be able to leverage that relationship and uh build those relationships. That's why even at the IAFCI um training conferences, I actually send 50 to 80 inspectors and analysts to come to this event. We have a meeting. The first thing I tell them is you are here to network. You are here to make friends uh especially with financial crime investigators, fraud fighters and and such and and build those relationships. Because you're not going to be successful if you if you don't.
Hailey
07:32
So true. I think one of my favorite um things that I've ever done at a conference whenever I was with my teammates was I told them they couldn't sit with me. And I was like, I'm not being mean, but you've got to put yourself out there. You've got to meet people because if you don't, you're not going to grow your own network. And instead, you're relying on someone else's network. Eric ( 7:49): I tell my team, uh this is not the sixth grade dance. So, don't huddle in the corner with your friends. Right.
Hailey
07:56
Right.
Eric
07:57
Explore. go out there, shake someone's hand, uh buy someone a drink, uh sit in the corner, drink some coffee, and and talk about work. And but not just work, get to know each other. I have friends that are friends. Start as co-workers or or um or uh I would say financial crime fighters working a case together, longtime friends that I only see maybe once or twice a year, but it's like instantly that relationship just like you know each other every day and and you just catch up.
Hailey
08:30
Well, that's exactly how I feel. I was mentioning that earlier, too. It's just a it's a different feeling when I come here. Um, someone also was saying that, you know, it's still small enough that you get to interact with people. You know, we do have a thousand people here this year, which it, you know, almost doubled last year, um, but in attendees, but it it still is the way that it's set up, the different uh courses that are available for people to take or sessions, you know, it's it's really one of those that, man, I'm just I'm just proud every time I walk in the door.
Eric
09:02
Oh, I'm glad to hear that. And I think part of it is you as well.That you have brought in a lot of people, with your passion, and and uh what you do with your podcast. Obviously a lot of listeners. And you, tout IAFCI, you're a you're uh on the chapter as well in Carolina. So your involvement I think has definitely helped us grow quite a bit. Especially for this year really getting the right people to come. Because it's not always the right people sometimes.
Hailey
09:27
Yeah. No, completely agree. But it's hard to put a conference together. I mean, I have I myself I have only done my small chapter conference, which of course is done in tandem with a great uh board. Um, so uh this this was just amazing. Um, I'd love to ask, you know, we we talked previously on the podcast about, you know, what you and your team uh do. But I'd love just specifically for the conference today to ask, you know, what's a what's a top fraud trend you're seeing now in in 2026?
Eric
09:55
Uh, I think transnational fraud, fraud at scale. That's really what we're seeing. It's not just within the US anymore. Uh, there's more and more scams that really touch everybody throughout the world. Uh, we're working more and more cases with our partners in Canada, partners in the UK, and they are large scale transnational fraud schemes. Uh, that is just really um impacting the entire world, frankly. Uh, I think that's the the big thing now is everything's at scale. Uh, with technology, it's so much easier. And, uh, I I think I've mentioned this before. Bad guys don't have rules or regulations. Uh, when I want to use something, I got to get it approved by multiple layers of people and bosses and and follow the rules and they don't. They can just do it and do it at scale.
Hailey
10:48
It's just not fair.
Eric
10:49
It is not fair.
Hailey
10:51
It's like, man, as soon as we get like one little step, it's like, geez, they just took five more. What in the world?
Eric
10:57
Yeah.
Hailey
10:57
So, but one day, I think we'll catch up. I I can the the the rate that this industry is growing with the collaboration. I think I think the fraudsters better watch out.
Eric
11:07
I agree 100%.
Hailey
11:08
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, uh I guess my last question for you, um and then I'll let you get back because I know that we've got a busy last day schedule is, um you know, if you had one word to describe fraud for 2026, what would it be?
Eric
11:20
Scale.
Hailey
11:22
Yep,
Eric
11:23
That would be the word.
Hailey
11:24
So true. So true. Well, Eric, always a pleasure. Thank you again so much for for joining me on Fraud Forward and for being here in Nashville.
Eric
11:31
Thank you for having me again. That's always a pleasure.
Hailey
11:34
I had the pleasure of meeting you last year in Oklahoma City and got to experience just a little bit of the magic that is Brian and you know, this year it really came out in full force and again just just grateful to know you.
Brian
11:47
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm I'm my uh my worst critic. And but you know, like I like I said in my acceptance speech, the first thing I did was email my board cuz I can't book guests. I can't uh get uh speakers lined up or or um you know um sponsorships or anything like that. It takes a team and I was really lucky to have a good board and uh you know I figure hustle now because there'll be a time when I can't hustle, right? So much
Hailey
12:13
Right. No, I I completely understand. Yeah, I believe uh part of the the award um or the nomination write up mentioned that you're like in the process of building two chapters which again is just so commendable.
Brian
12:24
Yeah. Yeah. We had a couple members uh my chapter is Rocky Mountain chapter and it covers Colorado, Wyoming and Montana. And we only had a couple people in uh Wyoming. And so we reached out to our members up there and then also collaborated with law enforcement and some banks up there and said what do you guys want to see? You know, what do you have? And there's a deficit of in training up there for sure in Wyoming. And so they had asked for um crypto. And so I got together, we got Carlos Rodoni from the international board up uh to talk about crypto. Uh Adam Ross from a local police department here in the Denver metro area and we went up and did a free event in Laramie. And uh talked about crypto and how to set up a program, how to investigate it and some case studies and that and uh was able to to build a satellite chapter out of that. And uh so we're doing the same thing in uh Montana now. We have three or four members up there. I think Wyoming we we have about almost 20 members now. And uh so we're starting to build that with Montana and then get up there next year with a presentation up there.
Hailey
13:23
Wow.
Brian
13:24
All while doing all our stuff in Colorado.
Hailey
13:25
Right. Right. That's just incredible. Um obviously uh you can tell that the passion is there uh for for this organization. But I'd love to ask why why this organization?
Brian
13:35
Uh, I can tell you right now, I don't think I'm a great cop by any means. But uh, I I think I'm a a good networker and a good investigator because of the networking. And I' I've belong to a couple other organizations, but truly the IAFCI has given me the networking. Um, and we've we've had supervisors that like, you know, why are you, you know, going to this lunch or why are you going to this meeting? And I tell them the networking and I get the eye roll. Until they need something and it's like, hey, we have an incident where, you know, this happened, you have a contact here, you have a contact there. Because of the networking I've made or u we've been able to get some successful prosecutions, some successful recoveries, some kidnapping recoveries all off of off that. And so I'm I'm passionate about three things in my life. One of them is my daughter. But um getting the message out. Getting getting the message out to as many people as we can about fraud, how to stop it, how to prevent it. Which is again why I'm a huge fan of yours, huge follower of yours. But then the other thing is putting a successful prosecution together, stopping these people. It's not enough to get the word out, but to stop and and put a dent in these organizations and these uh criminal masterminds. And that's that's really I felt like I've been a police officer for 30 years, but it wasn't until I started investigating fraud that I truly loved my job. And I stand by that.
Hailey
14:45
I love that. I love that. Um so, obviously we're here in Nashville uh for the conference. What do you think about the conference so far?
Brian
14:52
Oh, I think it's been one of the great uh greatest ones that we've had yet. Uh I've been to four or five of them so far. Uh and this one I mean there's the the level of speakers the the keynotes the uh you know again the interactive uh celebrities such as yourself. But uh you know the the quality of speakers you it's not um the only thing I like is it's never really the regurgitated version.
Hailey
15:12
Yeah.
Brian
15:13
You don't come to this conference and see okay I saw that three times already. Let's see. It's it's it's new. It's fresh. I presented for the first time and I thought it was going to be a flop. It was a full house. Um talking about, you know, networking and not being so siloed, which I have a tendency to do and others investigators do. And so I think it's it's one of the biggest attended, right? Uh Tampa was uh just going to be as big, but then the uh the hurricane hit them. But
Hailey
15:36
Uh yeah, that one that hurt me.
Brian
15:37
Over a thousand people here and and meeting new people and getting that networking and then again the quality of the speakers, especially for the value, right? That's the the biggest thing. Uh I'm a government employee, so the city only has so much money that they want to spend. Rightfully so, right? And uh so I think the value that we get for the price is in my opinion the best around. But
Hailey
15:57
So true. So true.
Brian
15:58
I'm jaded.
Hailey
15:58
Yeah. Well, I get it. Um okay, so in uh Colorado, you know, just last question before I let you go again. I know we're on the last day. Is there a particular fraud trend or uh you know, thing happening that's kind of spiking in 2026?
Brian
16:12
Uh we're seeing a lot of the romance scams and obviously a lot of the um the crypto investment. The you know the hey my name is you we met somewhere, you know the the blind blind things. And we're seeing a lot of uh card bust out opening accounts and then giving your account information over to somebody you don't know. And those crews are coming through they always come through in cycles but we're really seeing a spike in that stuff right now.
Hailey
16:35
Is there anything that's kind of working to help mitigate or or prevent those types of things?
Brian
16:39
Again, I fall back to the the education and the uh the networking that we're able to do. And getting that word out to as many people and and we we at the IAFCI Rocky Mountain will have bimonthly meetings, but we also have a thread and so we put that out. Hey, this crew just hit us or hey, you know, looking for accounting activity and this and that. And a lot of banks have been successful in in preventing it as it gets there. Um, you know, while they're there or right right before they commit the crime because of the information we're able to share. So other than that, it's just, you know, the deterrence and obviously the education and then the hammering them on the back end when we can put the case together.
Brian
17:14
Awesome. Well, Brian, again, congratulations on your award. It is very, very well deserved. Um, and thank you again so much for joining me on Fraud Forward.
Brian
17:22
No, thank you. I appreciate I appreciate everything you're doing to get the message out and uh love your podcast and keep them up.
Hailey
17:27
Thank you. All right. Thanks so much.
Brian
17:28
Thank you.
Hailey
17:29
So, I'd love it if you could introduce yourself to the audience and you know what it is that you do.
Dan
17:33
I am uh Dan Alessandrino. I'm a detective in New York City. Uh 25 years in law enforcement. 18 of them has been fighting fraud. Uh throughout the various aspects of my career. Um I pretty much mainly focus on large scaled organized groups right now. Uh your your street gangs, Chinese nationals doing uh the money laundering, um your West African BC groups and try to take those scales and build them to larger large scale investigations and try to disrupt and take down those networks as best as we can.
Hailey
18:02
Dude, you're so cool. Well, when I met you in Connecticut, I was like, "Oo, I hope this guy wants to be my friend." And luckily, luckily we are.
Dan
18:09
But you know what? It as much as the work I try to do, I won't be able to do it without people like you or the or the organizations and the the private sector law enforcement cooperation that we have.
Hailey
18:18
Yeah. I And that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. Um, we were we were going to have another banker on with us, but unfortunately, you know, schedules and the way they work with these conferences. Um, so we'll we'll talk a little bit about it, but I was approached by, you know, one of the members of the Carolina chapter who was like, "You'll never guess what happened." And, uh, you know, so if you want to explain what what kind of happened with that with the um the elder case and the, you know, welfare.
Dan
18:43
Unfortunately, there was a situation at an institution where they saw rapid deployment of money coming out of their retirement accounts. And uh they became alarmed about it and every avenue that they were trying to reach out, they weren't able to get connected to either the right person or to someone in in a local municipality that was able to go out. Um and thankfully due to the connections of our chapters and stuff like that, someone was like, "Hey, we have somebody over there in New York. Uh let's give Danny a call." And they shared the information with us. We were able to immediately respond and go out to a location, do a wellness check to verify the health and status of that person. Um, and it's hopefully going to lead into a interesting investigation now.
Hailey
19:23
Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's great. It just shows, you know, the the reach that we have within the um, you know, IAFCI and the fact that it it also just shows like I mean everybody wants to help everybody, right? We're we're not in this alone. And I think that's one thing that it's a it's a stigma I think that we have become accustomed to feeling as as fraud fighters of like, God, does anybody understand what I have going on? And then when you find your people, which if you haven't yet, it's because they're here at the IAFCI and you're not. Um but but that's that's what I just I I've loved so much about this organization.
Dan
19:59
Yes. I mean, I've I've been part of this organization for a long time now. And it's not that I've even developed partnerships or collaboration. I've developed true friendships.
Hailey
20:09
Yeah.
Dan
20:10
Um and and those friendships are what are what's enabling us now to hopefully try to slide the balance of bad versus good and financial fraud. Um, with with the cyber space that's out there and and cryptocurrency and ACHM wires moving so quickly across the rails, we have to be just as quick or almost as quick to be able to start freezing and saving our victims from that. And and the only way we do that is with this inter cooperation between public and private sector cooperation,
Hailey
20:38
Which I think it's also really cool about um, you know, this particular conference because they have the banking tracks, they have the law enforcement tracks, but you know, law enforcement can sit in on the bank ones. You know, they can sit and they can learn the different payment methods and avenues and then, you know, that's just an additional piece of education that goes in your pocket, something that you can use later. Um, but the other thing that I wanted to mention was obviously the networking. It's one of those things that I think this the IAFCI compared to any other association does it right. There are times that I will randomly walk past someone and they're like, "Oh, hey, come here. I want you to meet this person." And then from there, just like you and I, you know, it becomes a a friendship and and well, now a podcast interview.
Dan
21:18
Um I I think you're right. I think what's what's great about this organization um is that we leave our egos at the door.
Hailey
21:23
Yeah.
Dan
21:24
Um there's nobody that wants to stand down and say, "Thank you. I'm grateful for my accomplishments." Um, everyone shares the light and spreads the the success and uh the gratification of of of winning a win, having a seizure, putting a bad guy behind bars, and and getting the justice we need to for our victims.
Hailey
21:40
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, two more questions for you and then I promise I'll let you go. Um, the the first is um, you know, we're here in Nashville. What do you think of the conference?
Dan
21:50
I think this has been one of the most amazing conferences um, that I've seen so far. The it's it's great because there's so many tracks every hour and like I'm sitting there looking at what to go to and I was like oh my god I want to be there but I got to be there. The the impact of speakers that we have the knowledge that's out there that's being taught at this this conference this year is just above all that I've seen so far.
Hailey
22:12
Love that. Love that so much. Okay, final question and then I'm letting you go. If you had one word to describe fraud for 2026, what would it be?
Dan
22:22
That's a tough one.
Hailey
22:25
I know
Dan
22:25
that is a tough one.
Hailey
22:26
I love stumping people with it.
Dan
22:27
I I think you got me on this one.
Hailey
22:28
It's like instant gratification for me.
Dan
22:30
It's because I want to go something with cyber.
Hailey
22:32
Mhm.
Dan
22:33
But then again, like yesterday I was speaking and everyone's focused on how you know um cryptos, 7 billion according to IC3 and BCS are up there as one and two. I go but mail fraud's 23 billion in 2023 per fincen. I'm like why are we sleeping on those numbers? So I'm a little, uh collaboration. I think I'm going to use the word collaboration because it's been my model for my whole entire career that without collaboration I wouldn't exist or I wouldn't be able to do what I do and I owe everybody in this in this organization and on the private sector what I succeed on. Because without them I wouldn't be able to succeed where I need to.
Hailey
23:08
Dude, you're the man. Thank you so much for for joining me on the podcast today and just for being the awesome human that you are.
Dan
23:14
Thank you so much and I appreciate everything you do and getting the word out there for everybody to to see.
Hailey
23:17
Happy to do it.
Dan
23:18
All right.
Hailey
23:18
So, you guys are with the South Carolina Department of Corrections. Travis, I've had you on the podcast before and you've actually uh spoken at the um IAFCI Carolina's conference. I'm glad that you guys are here and not just in the attendee uh capacity, but you're also speaking today, right?
Travis
23:33
Uh yeah, absolutely. Uh I guess we did okay enough they asked to come back for round two. Got to still talk about what we do in the prison system. Um some of the things people don't get to see, the money that moves behind the walls. That you know, often times from what I hear from others, and I thought as a road deputy you know, we send them to prison, they disappear, you don't hear from them 10 years eventually they come back and deal again. Uh unfortunately that's not That’s not the case. So we're here to educate on kind of what happens in the prison system and you know what we do as investigators and analysts
Matt
24:04
right
Hailey
24:04
Yeah well Matt I'd love to hear more about what you do specifically in in the investigations with the the department of corrections.
Matt
24:11
Yeah, I'm My name is Matt McIntyre. I'm in the intelligence unit for SCDC OIG. Um we take about 3,000 contraband cell phones out of South Carolina prisons every year.
Hailey
24:21
Wow.
Matt
24:21
And our team extracts those and pulls data off of them. That's usually where a lot of our cases originate. Um, we're looking at peer-to-peer uh payment apps, inmates who are creating accounts or buying accounts from family members and then they're using those accounts to pay for illicit goods, contrabands, narcotics, and then bribing public officials and things like that.
Hailey
24:42
Yeah. I think um I I kind of feel like you guys have as the one investigation that's like almost like a double-edged sword. You're like, we hate that they have this ability like we can't really prevent it completely. We try our best, but at the same time, when the criminals are, you know, doing this stuff, you've got like this this treasure trove of data and things that you can use. Number one to, yeah, I mean, it it has so much on it. So, is there you know, anything you can elaborate on with that?
Matt
25:11
Yeah, it it really is a treasure trove. You know, um people's lives are on our cell phones. I mean, if you think about when we look at an extraction, there's different portions to it, but it's going to be their their financial life, their different accounts, the banks that they use, their contacts are on there, who their family members are, who their their girlfriend is or their wife or their mother. Um, it's it's the games that they play, you know. Uh, it's weird scrolling through a phone. Um, everytime you watch a YouTube video, the thumbnail of that video is on a device. And so, I will see thumbnails on there of videos that I've watched personally. I'll see thumbnails on there of movies that I've watched. You know, when a new Avengers movie comes out, they want to watch it. And it it's really weird seeing the human humanity spread throughout a phone, but also, you know, you'll see a thumbnail of a movie next to pictures of fentanyl that they've gotten smuggled in. And so, it's just their whole life is on there. Um, who they talk to and and what they're trying to buy and what they're trying to smuggle in.
Hailey
26:10
Yeah. So, um, I love that you guys are bringing that information here. Obviously, I got to know a little bit from personal work experience with you and your team. Um, but also just uh the what you shared at the November conference in the Carolinas, now you're bringing it to the international level, I think is super important. It lets us know one like there are things that are being done. We recognize that there's a problem within the prisons. Here's what we're doing. Here's what's working. But at the same time, it's also bringing uh to light that collaboration that's truly needed with with banks and law enforcement. So, I'd love either one of you to elaborate on like what more could banks do to help. Um, and I mean, obviously, we had a great time when we worked together, but if there's something in particular that's maybe missing from current investigations or uh opportunities where they're working with you or or not, what what could be done better?
Travis
26:59
Um, well, I think as you mentioned, us working together was proof positive of of what good connections can do. Yeah. The teamwork can offer. Um, you know, and I from my what I've seen in investigations, a lot of times the investigator is not far off. Y'all aren't far far off from what you're seeing. It's putting that picture together. You're looking at the money movement on this side. Well, we know this inmate over here is a problem. You don't you don't know who this character is made necessarily, but we know he's a problem. He he's constantly getting contraband in. And over here, you're seeing peer-to- peer payments. Uh rapid transactions, uh people moving money for them. And and once you put that picture together, it it creates a more of a portrait than we would have seen on our own.
Hailey
27:39
Yeah.
Travis
27:39
Um so if I could offer any advice and just what our goal is, not only to educate who we are and what we're seeing in the prison system, is to strongly encourage that collaborative effort, and just to take it a step further. You know, this is why I'm such a big proponent of us working with an analyst.
Hailey
27:54
Yeah.
Travis
27:54
Because again, what I see as an investigator and he sees as an analyst is two different perspectives.
Hailey
27:59
So true.
Travis
27:59
You put them together and it makes a beautiful picture. We had our our friends in the financial sector and we're painting masterpieces.
Hailey
28:05
Yeah, absolutely. So, we're here at the conference and we're we're talking about AI. We're talking about scams. We're talking about ways that uh you know devices are being used throughout investigations for how we can get that holistic picture of understanding uh you know device intelligence, what they're doing, the behavior, things like that. Is there anything that you guys think that is being underestimated right now in investigations that should really be at kind of at the forefront of of investigations for either law enforcement or bankers?
Travis
28:33
Right now, we're seeing kind of the new frontier with AI. And we've never had more access to information than we have before. That includes our inmates. You know, as soon as they get a cell phone in their hand, they have access to the same access that you I have.
Hailey
28:46
Yeah.
Travis
28:46
And they can do the same things we can. I've seen them create documents, you know, now that AI is a thing. I've seen them create videos of them with staff members, AI videos of them interacting with staff members, taking bribes. But yeah, the access to AI is just really it's been a new frontier for not just us. But the inmates as well, cuz again, there's that human piece. You know, are they calling their mom and they're calling their family watching the latest movie. Absolutely. But they're also, you know, creating fake check stubs. They're they're uh creating fake identities. They're buying their friend's identity for 150 bucks to create, you know, maybe they've been blacklisted on whatever peer-to- peer payment IP or something. They need yours to to keep going. Um because without that access to the outside world, like they they're shut down. They're they're laying in their cell with nothing to do.
Hailey
29:30
Yeah.
Travis
29:32
Matt.
Matt
29:32
Yeah. One thing I'd like to add is um a lot of the uh the connections that we make on the intelligence side are specifically with uh PII. So phone numbers, email addresses, you know, we see it on the phones. An inmate will um keep criminal activity on specific apps. So they might keep their extortion on WhatsApp. They might keep their narcotics on uh Telegram, right? And so if there's a phone number that is connected to a bank account uh to you know to a banker it just might be a regular number to us that could be maybe a a text now number that an employee has. But we have no record of that but you guys do. So whenever time you're writing anything to do with um financial documents or anything like that, including in there as much PII as you can, any email addresses phone numbers. Because when we look at the intel databases we have that's how we draw those connections.
Hailey
30:26
I love that so much, and appreciate that that context. Because truly uh you know, I think the famous saying is we don't know what we don't know. Right? But if we have the the understanding that hey this this one piece of information, if you would include that in your packet that you're sending in with the investigation, it'll do a world of good for the case. It'll help us uh get the case still rolling, versus having to stop subpoena or search warrant for something. Um, but if it's your case and it's where you're the victim as a financial institution, send them everything. Because truly we can as the victim.
Travis
30:57
Yeah. And again, that that one phone number could be our missing link that we're looking for.
Hailey
31:02
Yeah.
Travis
31:02
You know, or and you even on some of the the information we've seen, put your contact out there so we can call you and we can connect and and follow up with you and let you know like, hey, this is what we're seeing or you see anything similar. How long have you been seeing this? You know, again, you never know what little nugget you may have that really turns that investigation.
Hailey
31:20
So true. So true. Okay, final question. We're here at the IAFCI at the conference. Is there any um takeaways, any sessions, or just what's your overall feel for for this conference? And would you recommend it?
Travis
31:31
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I would recommend it. Um easy easy uh answer to that. Get out, meet people. You don't know what you don't know unless you get out there and make friends. You don't know what they know. You know, you don't know what gaps you'll close for each other. Those connections in themselves are invaluable. We all bring our own expertise and we all bring something to the table that the other could use. Um, so that would be my biggest advice. Just get out there and meet somebody.
Hailey
31:55
Love that. How about you, Matt?
Matt
31:57
Yes, conference is absolutely something you should attend. This is my first international conference and I've never bumped shoulders with this many uh important people in one room. I'll be honest with you. I I just met the guy who's over fraud for one of the top 100 banks. Um, there's a lot of those kind of people around here and the networking is incredible. The sessions, whether it's Chinese syndicates or prison money laundering, I'm learning something new every 10 minutes. So, it's a lot to take in, but it it's definitely worth it.
Hailey
32:25
Absolutely. Thank you both so much for for joining me today on Fraud Forward Live in person.
Hailey
32:30
Yeah, we were just talking a little bit about your story and I want you to tell the audience, you know, uh, basically, you know, what what you were doing. Um, and when you got caught, you were just telling me that story a little bit, but I'd love for the audience to to understand, you know, when you were the the fraudster, what was it that you were doing?
Michael
32:48
So, um, from 2015 to 2017, I was, um, making skimmers. I was installing them. I was printing credit cards, making fake IDs, um, traveling the US and putting out cash or money orders with the debit cards because I would have, um, keypad access. So I would have the pin numbers or if it was a fleet card I would have like odometer and um driver ID and for credit cards I would have the zip code for it. So I spent most of the time traveling the country um pulling out cash um making money orders with the debit cards and then I would sell my cards like the the database for people who would do bladder trucks. So like the flee cards and and the zip codes.
Hailey
33:29
Wow. And so what ultimately I guess led to your your demise or your capture or what how' they how' they catch you?
Michael
33:37
So um I used to VPN usually with my emails cuz um I was working with one of the guys that he he would send us cards like we worked together in the sense where I had skimmers up and then I would be like okay half of the skimmers are your um the the cards are yours the other half is mine. Um he he con reached out to me and said, "Hey, can you um send me my my my data set.” And I was like, "Can you wait for me to to to go?" Cuz I was on the way to Colorado. Can I He wait for me to land because I don't have time right now. And then we started arguing like I didn't argue with him, but he just started like complaining like, "Oh, what?" I was like, "Okay, you know what? I'll send it to you. Um what's the worst that can happen?" Well, we know now.
Hailey
34:15
Now we know. So, uh, man, uh, and and that was just a a lapse in judgment at one point where you weren't VPN in whenever you sent it. Is that
Michael
34:27
Yeah, cuz I for me to VPN was kind of diff. It was only like $3 or like I think 99 cents for a VPN. I had some Russian based VPN cuz I was also paranoid like if I do like NordVPN or what if they subpoena them and they actually give them where like I don't know how it works. So I was like, you know, but I'm like if they're not going to get it from Russia, you know. So, I I went on the dark web and I found VPNs that were Russian servers and um I would have to put Bitcoin cuz that's my other level paranoia. What if I if I put my credit card, they might even trace it back to my credit card.
Hailey
34:58
Yeah.
Michael
34:58
So, I would there was like a little ATM place like probably a little bit down south out of the way for me and I would go and put cash in, scan my QR code and have my my wallet. With a, it was like a Bitcoin wallet with with the Bitcoin. And I was like I don't have time for it. So then I was like okay. So that's why.
Hailey
35:17
Right. Okay. So and where were you when when you were caught?
Michael
35:21
I was in my um where I lived at it was in Palmetto Bay, Florida.
Hailey
35:25
Okay.
Michael
35:25
It was it's right in Miami. Um it just like a little bit south and I was Yeah. There I live with my wife and my three kids at the time.
Hailey
35:33
Okay. And so you went after you were arrested. Um, and then, uh, obviously they came and and told you what they had on you, what what they were, um, you know, charging you with. I' I'd love to know first your mindset. You know, what were you thinking? Was it like a crap, I'm finally caught? Was it like a how do I get myself out of this? Like where where were you mentally then?
Michael
35:56
So, I actually when they showed up to my house, um, I hadn't slept that night. I was already like feeling that something was going to happen. I don't know why. I had intuition
Hailey
36:04
cuz you didn't use your VPN. You were already
Michael
36:06
Yeah. I I I was like it's going to catch up to me. It's been a while now and I kind of I don't know what I had a spidey sense if you want to call. And I was like let me I was going out a lot like and like doing my business with other guys. And I was like I told my wife I'm going to just stay home today. Let's watch the movie. And I sat there with my kids watched the movie. They fell asleep cuz they had to go to school the next day And I didn't sleep. My wife said bye and um I was like okay. She went outside the door and then she just walked right back in cuz I stayed on the couch like watching TV. She um she said there's a bunch of people with guns outside. So I'm thinking I'm getting robbed.
Hailey
36:39
Yeah.
Michael
36:39
Right. And when I I rush outside and then I see the Secret Service things and I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I already knew I was like, "Hey, I'm not going anywhere." And then the guy came up to me and he's like, "Oh, you know, whatever. I'm use a warrant." I said, I sign a relief like it's about time. And he was like, "What do you mean?" I was like, "I've been waiting for this day already.
Hailey
36:59
I've been waiting. It's been eating at me. I've been waiting on you.
Michael
37:02
I was just dying to get it over with because I already knew it was going to happen. And in the guys I was working with, I was I had just like probably two weeks before been like, "Hey, I'm done with you guys." They were ripping me off. They were trying to take it. They were taking advantage. And I'm like, "I'm not making any money." What how I was thinking I was going to make when I started doing this. So I already like I'm going to go to Jacksonville. I'm going to do something by myself and I'm going to call it quits and invest in a legitimate business.
Hailey
37:26
Yeah.
Michael
37:26
And but I knew that was going to happen. So I was relieved thought.
Hailey
37:29
Yeah. Okay. So when you after you were arrested, what what got you to I guess where you were maybe helping with the with the case or or what what was that like?
Michael
37:42
So um when when I um went to I spoke to the Secret Service agent and told me, "Hey, let's do the the talking. Um the education." I started traveling and then people were just like they they loved hearing the story. I did saw how I was transparent and then um it just
Hailey
37:59
But how did you get to the point to be able to help Secret Service and be able to go to travel?
Michael
38:03
So I was sitting in the in the US Marshall's office with the Secret Service agent that was in charge of my arrest. And he was like, "Hey, um we can't really reinsert anymore because um everybody's already been arrested. And plus you're more beneficial for us if you educate us rather than um us reinserting into into the crime scene again." And then he said, "Are you willing to put like a seminar or like I like put a PowerPoint presentation and speak your story and tell them the truth and all stuff in front of a bunch of cops and prosecutors and different I was like, "Yeah, sure. Why not?" You know? So, I ended up doing that. And um I did that in 2018 in the Miami Secret Service field office. And after that my judge granted me while on bond to keep traveling. Um I met um my now partner with my company. And he was working for a big company called Wex. And Wex was losing a lot of money and they told him, "Hey, can you put some of these conferences and maybe take him along so he could educate everybody so we see if we could help with the losses?"
Hailey
39:04
Yeah.
Michael
39:04
And it went all from there. I just kept doing it and then new things started coming up and new ideas and that.
Hailey
39:13
Okay. So, how long was your actual sentence?
Michael
39:16
My sentence was 64 months. Um, I went into prison and my the the agent that arrested me contacted the prosecutor and asked them like if they could help um with the reduction for all everything I did. It went in front of my judge and she agreed to do 30 months and I end up serving 18 months inside prison. It's a camp, prison camp. Um, and then um house arrest and home confinement was the remainder of my 25 months that I did total with the BOP.
Hailey
39:46
Okay. And so during that time is that whenever you were thinking you know maybe there's more to it with you know this education piece or um you know maybe I can now start start giving back and and of course making sure that number one we we educate so that they know what to look for but then now also the the innovative stuff.
Michael
40:06
So I actually started digging about it before. Like cuz I was out for a year I mean two years um working with everybody like how like these conferences are. And I was like there maybe there's something more to this and I could actually do the same thing I was doing with the electronics part, but opposite. So I I started getting my head winding and I I I kept in contact almost every day with some of the guys that I was um, that I met around along the journey. And I was like okay I know what I'm going to do. So, I'm going to get out and when I get out, I'm going to try to do continue doing this again and and maybe I could make some money with if I could bring some tools to to help instead of just a talking, you know, in conference. So, that's when I figured that out.
Hailey
40:49
I I love that. It's, you know, I I've heard it so many times. I've said it so many times. Um, you know, if the fraudsters would would use uh their their power for good, and it seems that that that's now what you are doing.
Michael
41:00
Yes.
Hailey
41:01
Um, and so unfortunately, you know, in the beginning it didn't start that way, but now you're you're here and you're doing great things. Um, I'd love to hear more about what it is that that you are doing now. Like what have you developed?
Michael
41:11
So, I developed a tool that's like it's called Tri Read. And it's like a portable device where you could um swipe credit cards on it. You could tap credit cards or um insert the chip for the credit cards. So, what it does is it's for law enforcement. So they could kind of compare what the information is on all those um on those three um points and then see if it matches with whatever is printed on the card. Also, um it it's able to store that data on the device where if you you come across a couple fraud chrome cards, you're able to like say, "Okay, well, I'm going to build this case on this and I'm going to have it for discovery and all that stuff." And you just pop in a USB drive into it. It downloads it to it in a in a spreadsheet with all the information, timestamps, everything. Um, pictures and everything pretty much with a with an incident with a with a cards. They could even add like what room you got it in. Like, you know, sometimes they label like a room one, room two or in the glove compartment of a car. Like it's more for like the back end also at the end to do it. And then I also came out with a device called Skim Buster. And this is a tool that you could either insert or swipe on a payment terminal or card reader and it would detect whether there's a skimmer or not. Um it would tell you a green light if it's no skimmer and if there's a red light there's a skimmer in it. 42:27 [>>] I love that. Is that uh something that's only available to law enforcement aswell or is that 42:32 [>>] um law enforcement, retail, anybody involved like um in in in this type of um how would you say I don't um 42:41 [>>] like our industry? 42:42 [>>] Industry. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's not for consumers like like regular consumer. Yeah. 42:46 [>>] Yeah. 42:46 [>>] And the reason I ask is because you know that's something I'd like to have in my pocket. 42:49 [>>] Well, we can talk about that. 42:51 [>>] Okay. Okay. We will. We will. Um, so I I I want to say first of all, thank you. Uh, you know, on behalf of all fraud fraud fighters, we're we're very glad that you're on this side now. Um, is there anything that you've learned about this industry that, uh, you know, has made you just, uh, I guess fully commit to to what it is as far as like even the IAFCI or just, uh, the fraud, uh, fighting community in general? Something that just makes you think, oh yeah, this is this is definitely what I want to do for the either the rest of my life or for the foreseeable future. 43:22 [>>] Um, one thing I did notice is a lot of hardworking people. And they put a lot of time and I know a lot of them don't get paid for this. Like they put extra hours. It's all like mostly volunteering and they're doing good. They're helping people out, you know, cuz even when I was doing the skimming at one point, I realized I was like not only hurting people financially, I was hurting people mentally because if your card gets stolen, 43:44 [>>] Yeah. 43:44 [>>] You have to start calling the bank. You start feeling like, you know, and I feel like it is they say some people say it's not a victimless crime, but it is. And I see just the the the even like the ethics, like the work ethics, I it's impressive for me. and and I I want to aspire to be something like that eventually, too. 44:01 [>>] Yeah. Well, I I definitely am starting to see that already in in what it is that you do. Uh clearly, uh Carlos introduced us and he was like, "I think you I think you want to talk to this guy." And so far, I'm I'm impressed and I'm I'm happy to have you on as the first ever former fraudster on Fraud Forward. Um is there anything else that you'd like to to tell the audience either, you know, about your journey or about where you hope to go or even just advice uh for anyone listening?
Michael
44:27
Hm, that's a tough one. 44:29 [>>] Yeah, 44:30 [>>] I mean I think everybody has um different paths and a lot of people like even though like I was like an opposite end of things, I think we still had something in common where we had a goal that we were trying to reach and I think my mistake was I would give up. I gave up easily. And I think that that could apply even for the side of also and even for law enforcement or for sometimes you don't see light at the end of the tunnel and just not give up, you know, like 44:58 [>>] follow follow your path, follow your dreams and I think that eventually with time if you're patient, 45:03 [>>] you will see the light. 45:04 [>>] That's so true. I think uh Fud Forward is a piece of that that truth. Uh you know, it's a it's a dream that I didn't think possible and now here we are and here I am talking to you. Um again, it's been a pleasure to meet you. I'm I'm so grateful that you agreed to come on the podcast today and would definitely like to have you back. Maybe we could do some kind of long form uh educational uh piece one day. I'd love that. 45:25 [>>] Yeah, we could put I could put something together depending on what's going on at the time. 45:29 [>>] Oh, so true. Would love that. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for joining me, 45:32 [>>] Mike. Thank you so much for having me. 45:35 [>>] Perfect. 45:42 [>>] Thanks for listening to Fraud Forward. Remember, every conversation, every connection, and every insight moves our industry one step closer to stronger fraud defenses. If today's episode sparked an idea, share it with your team or tag me on LinkedIn. I love hearing how you're moving fraud forward in your own organization. Until next time, stay curious, stay resilient, keep moving fraud forward.
View full transcript
