Welcome back to the Fraudology podcast.
Today we have a really special guest that I'm excited
to learn from and I know you will be too.
To kind of bury the headline, he escaped a scam center
and he's now dedicated a lot of his life to helping large
organizations understand how those are working.
His name is Mohammad Muzahir. He's also known as Red Bull.
If anyone reads Wired on a regular basis, he was the cyber crime
whistleblower in a Wired article not too long ago in an article
that really uncovered a lot of what was going on in scam centers.
So, I'm really excited to talk to him.
It is 9 after 9:00 at night my time uh so that we
can make sure that uh we could hop on a call.
Mohammad, welcome to Fraudology. I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks. Thanks cuz you having having me here.
Yes. Oh, thank you. I'm very excited.
We're going to start from the very beginning and then we're going
to go through, you know, the what a lot of my listeners will
call the fun stuff, though I know it wasn't fun for you. Um,
So, what country did you grow up in?
Basically, I'm from India. I grew up here in India.
So I have completed my diploma in computer science engineering.
And how you got involved in in working for a scam center,
especially you know with a college degree in computer engineering?
No after completing my diploma in computer science engineering.
Uh I want to continue my bachelor's study there in abroad.
So there's studying there in abroad for that I need too much
money to getting admission visa and everything there.
So I was thinking I need money so from where
I get money and continue my study.
So at that time one of my friend.
He was very close to me, he was my best mate in college.
He said he have a friend he is currently working there in Laos
and he will help you to get job there as a IT manager.
So the salary is also very good there around 1,700 USD monthly.
So you will earn too much money and it's good.
After 1 month, after one year, two year, you will
get back and you will continue your study.
So I thought it's okay because he was my friend
and the another guy was his friend. So I thought it's good.
So when he contacted the guy he was working in the
Laos he gave us a number of another agent.
So he said he said he will help me to get
job there, visa, everything this this.
And he said to me you just need to book your ticket
from India to Bangkok when you arrived Bangkok
then contact with me this this I said okay.
So I I booked my ticket. It was the first time I flew to abroad.
I booked my ticket. Yeah.
Booked my ticket and then go to the Bangkok.
When I arrived at Bangkok airport, then the agent
gave me a direction told me you need to get
bus from there and need to come sharing.
There is a place name uh in Thailand is name is Chiang Saen.
So I just took the bus from Bangkok to Chiang Saen.
I arrived there after 12 12 13 hours.
When I when I when I arrived there.
So, uh agent told me you just need to take
your selfie and need to send me.
So, I did same I just took my selfie and send the agent.
Then after that uh I was actually at the time I
was standing outside the immigration office.
Chiang Saen immigration office immigration office.
One of the immigration officer come from inside
and he called me said hey this is you just
show show my selfie and said this is you.
I said yes this is me come inside.
So they were working with the immigration officers.
Yes this is very big story if I like uh if I tell
you the whole truth of everything about everything
so like it's take too much time.
So he he took my passport and he took he told me give me 500 kib.
And uh unfortunately you know uh like you you know there is a
many country like uh in the world they are not charging uh you
know tourist for existing existing the country whenever we exit.
So nobody is charging but he charged me 500. I gave him 500 kib.
Then after that he told me uh he come with me and
he told me just go down because there is a river between
Laos and uh you know Thailand is Mekong. Mekong River.
So he told me the officer told me there is
a boat there waiting for you go down.
So I just put my back down and get
me pass and go down on the boat.
So when boat crossed the Mekong River and uh got there the
Golden Laos side when when boat arrived at Laos side.
So I just out from the boat and I saw there
is a another man he was waiting for me.
He showed my selfie and said yes he
told me give me your passport.
I give I give my passport then after that uh he helped
me to pass the immigration Laos immigration office
even without checking my bag and nothing.
They just gave me business visa for 3 months.
Put business visa on my passport and this this then I when
I got out from the immigration office there is another Chinese
man was standing outside the immigration office.
Then he took my passport from the another Chinese guy.
Then uh he told me wait here.
Then I wait here around 1 hour I think 1 hour 1
hour 10 - 20 minute after 1 hour 20 minute the
same agent came to me with the white van.
Yes. So he told me he was because he was already knowing me.
Then at at the time the the agent I was connecting with
he gave too much around I think five 6,000 or maybe 10
20,000 Chinese yuan to the uh you know Chinese guy.
He was having my passport.
And then after that uh Ethiopian agent collect passport,
my passport and bring me in the van and we
travel toward the night stay for hotel.
He told me you just agent just just uh
helped me to book a hotel for me. He said you just stay here.
So we will help you to give you an interview at like I'm going
to uh contact with any company then I will let you know.
I will bring you in the company office
we will give interview there.
I said okay. I said okay.
At the uh another evening time uh he came to my
hotel and told me we are going for interview.
I said okay I I was I was okay I was happy. I said okay.
Then then we arrived at the building and they took my interview
you know typing speed and we have speaking in English.
I I'm able to text in English or not. They said your post.
Then they said you you have a knowledge
of Facebook and this Instagram.
This is I said yes I have a knowledge.
I would everything actually in the interview center there is a
one Chinese post and one is the translator Ethiopian translator.
Because Chinese people mostly not understand many Chinese
scammers or mafia they not understand English language.
There is there is a translator.
Yes, translator they like uh they the all
the translators they know Chinese.
Both the Chinese masters giving them command in Chinese
and then they translate and tell us in English.
So they told me suddenly that when I told them asked
them yes I am good for the IT manager job.
They said there is no IT manager job you're
going to scam with the people. At the time I shocked I arrived.
So they told you you're going to scam people.
Yes. Yes. You are not here as IT manager.
You're going to scam people.
Did they keep your passport?
So you didn't have you couldn't leave?
Yes. Yes. Yes. My passport when I crossed the Mekong River.
As I said after that they not gave my passport.
They were already having my passport from the
Mekong River to the company everything.
Because so the Chinese boss told me
you're going to uh join today. I said no I will join tomorrow.
When I arrived at my hotel, I searched about the Golden Triangle.
All this about this scam, this this is I
saw a lot of articles, a lot of things.
This is after that I thought I said what I'm doing here.
Then I told the agent I told I want to go back.
He told me we spent too much money on you to bring you here.
If you want to go back, you must need to pay us money, our money.
And it was money you didn't have, right?
I I don't have money at the time because
I was also there to earn money.
Yeah. You were there to earn money. You didn't have money, right?
Yes. My parents at the time called me.
They told me, "Uh, you get the job.
" I said, "Yes, I get the job. Yes. Yes. "
You didn't tell them what the job was?
I didn't tell them because I I said maybe they will take too much
tension and maybe they will take any different kind of step.
Maybe it will put me in trouble here. So I said okay.
Then the next day when I joined the compound when I
joined the compound when I joined the compound.
So there is I saw like there is not only one office.
And there is not there is like building it's the building
is around 30 40 floors sometime 50 floors building.
And on on every floor there is four five offices.
And in every office in every office there
is hundreds of people are working there.
Like me without passport and on a computer
screen around 14 14 15 hours.
So at first day the first day you know when they recruit
the traffic like when they recruit the person at
the first day they will give them Facebook IDs.
And and Instagram ID. You know which kind of IDs there is.
They are giving two two factor authentication IDs like they're
already I think uh stolen lot of Facebook IDs from the Facebook
and Instagram IDs and they are using the same kind of ID here
So they're using already created Facebook
IDs not create them for you
Already two to three three years old ID
Wow two three years old IDs is with two factor authentication.
And you understand from that for this point you understand Meta
Meta like if I understand Meta is the pipeline of this game.
Yes. We we very much know that Meta is the pipeline of this scam.
It's good to hear you say it
And it's also raised the question you know if
the people are using stolen ID of Facebook.
Like there is a thousands of people said every one
person is having 10 15 IDs 10 15 Facebook ID.
So there is thousands of people and they're having
millions of Facebook id stolen Facebook IDs.
So the question is from where the people
are getting all these IDs?
Unfortunately, it's fairly easy with fishing
attacks and things like that.
And Meta could see that this user always logged in
from, you know, California in the US, right?
And then all of a sudden they start logging in from Laos, right?
You would think that would be a signal to them that the account
has been taken over but they don't they don't do anything.
No, even I just want to tell you one more thing of Meta.
Meta is whenever Meta blocked the ID, I saw Meta.
Meta warned the identity of the person says show your face.
We're going to recognize you.
And you know what scammers lying there like
if I have a I have a Facebook ID.
So on the Facebook ID there is a lot of victims on
the Facebook ID like lot of people are connected
with me from USA, from UK, from everywhere.
So suddenly maybe Meta said blocked the ID and Meta said just
recognize your face and I will get back to you your ID.
Scam scammers just showing their own face
You could use my Facebook or my Instagram. Take it over.
Meta could say, "Oh, we don't know if it's you.
Show me your face to make sure it's you.
" You could show your face for my account and get through?
Yes, there is a lot lot of times it happened there a lot
of time like hundreds of time I personally saw this.
So I think you understand that.
So after that they give me Facebook
IDs even they give me sim cards.
They told me you have a lot of sim they give me five
six sim cards two mobile phone to create some
Laos Facebook ID on that that phone numbers.
So I did that after that. You know the story the story bible.
Mhm. Yeah. I read your post about that. The Yeah.
Yeah. It's the game changing.
It's the it's the game changing of the whole scam.
Whole scam is running on on only one only one single story.
So actually after six seven days when we people
created our Facebook IDs, Instagram IDs, we
posted fake like we created fake persona.
This is then after that we need to create a story.
And in the story where you from, where you spend your childhood,
like everything just take example like you
And you have you have also a life story right?
You know you know where you born, uh which kinds of food you
like in childhood, what is your desire, like everything.
Whatever have a have a human
And even and the most and the most you know the most
painful thing is even even scammers are using to
manipulate the victims the private things.
Private things, like uh I don't know I I I need to talk
here with you about all these or not but I just because
I need to I I think I need to tell tell you.
The private things like talking about the period. Like
For yet in every month. Which days this this is.
So don't you think don't you think if a person if a person
shares all kind of all these things with a with a victim.
So victim said oh no no no this is not a scammer.
This is a someone who is trust on me who is like who love me.
So this kinds this is the physiological control.
This is a social engineering.
If we talk about this is a totally social
engineering to manipulate someone mind.
So one more thing like if if a persona is living
in California, okay, Los Angeles, Los Angeles,
California in any any areas of Los Angeles.
So in Los Angeles wherever she he she will stay there is a
hospital name, school name, road, everything and even the
And the story bible is all about you the scammer, right?
Like this is about your life in quotation marks so that you
can share everything and get them to trust you, right?
And they've researched everything so Well, that they know the
hospital and the school that you were, you know, born at, the the
hospital you were born at, the school you went to and Wow.
Yes. Even even nearby the hospital.
Like if any if someone if someone choose
the persona location is New York. Okay. In New York. Manhattan.
Yeah. So in Manhattan there is hospital.
Hospital name and road names.
Every park areas every golf we playing golf in Manhattan.
Uh where is swimming pool? Which hotel is the best?
And uh which kind of restaurant there in which
restaurant which kinds of food there.
So all kind of all these things are planned in
the story, already planned in the story.
Because when victim is going to ask you a question and
you need to give give him answer I am here I have this
currently I'm here and even the photo of everything
Photo and for these kinds of photo they used
there is a Pinterest you know Pinterest
Oh yeah mhm they used Pinterest to find photos?
They they on a Pinterest and uh one is another
website I I I didn't remember the name of the website
it's Chinese it's Chinese application
So they finding photo from there so easily
easily we will find photo from there.
Like if any scammers want to tell the victims currently
I'm uh currently I'm going for golf.
And I am in the Manhattan golf uh uh stadium okay
There they're on the internet.
They definitely collect the photo and just send them.
Looks like they're they're Yeah. Wow.
So it's even it's not possible to scan on the Google lens.
And because the these these kinds of photos they are not
available some photos are not available on the Google lens.
So, if somebody did a reverse engineer or reverse search of the
photo, some of them you can't find them on Pinterest and see
that they're mass- produced or they're public pictures. Wow.
But if if someone successfully reverse engineered and found the
port to Google, but there is also answer for that question.
There is also answer for everything.
For everything whatever Whatever victim will tell the scammers,
there is an answer for everything, for everything, every
script written already written and those people there.
That's what I was going to ask you is did you go through like
a training class for this or were you just handed the story
bible and the scripts and you just had to figure it out?
See whenever whenever they recruit people is like
in every teams they giving training every day.
There is not like uh I just go there and just open. No no no.
You must need to every person need to follow the mafia script.
How they are talking how they are talking
with the victims from first. And they're monitoring everything.
They're monitoring everything.
Your your Facebook account, your Instagram account
is already logged in the in your boss in your
team leader and your boss computer.
And they're watching they're watching on your
Instagram account and Facebook account.
Which kind of comment you are doing on the victim post.
Which kinds of message you are communic
communicating with the victims.
They're watching everything and they they will also guide you.
You do don't do this mistake. They will put you fine on you.
Don't do this mistake. Don't do this. Do this. Do this.
Because this there in the scam compounds
there is no choice for us.
Like for every every traffic person there is no choice for them.
They must need to follow whatever boss will tell them.
If you don't follow what your boss tells you, what happens?
If you don't follow the whatever your boss will told
you, you the first thing you will get fined.
Fine is one 100 one from 100 to 1,000 and 2,000 yuan
So in simple if I tell you the whole
industry is surviving on the debit.
Like whenever whenever I I not listened them they put fine on me.
And my salary was in Chinese. My salary was 3500 yuan. Okay.
Yes. 3500 per month. Per month. 3500.
So they put fine on me, put fine on me, put on fine me even like
even the 3500 will end and maybe my fine will come at the end.
Oh, so basically you're stuck like you can never leave because
you can't pay off your debt because they keep fining you
And the contract is for one year.
And you must need to complete your one year
and after one year you will go to the home
You can so you can go home but only after one year
After Yes. After completing one year you will go.
But before one year whether you earn money you are not
earning money you are in debit you are whatever.
You must need to come to the office.
You must need to sit on the computer for 14 15 hours and you
must need to follow the instructions of your boss and your
team leader whatever they are doing you need to do that.
How many people were you talking to at once?
Like how many how many victims were you I mean because that
would be complicated to remember your persona for this person
and that person and that person like how did that work?
For this you know for this what they are using
there see you know I have only one story.
Whether whether I use any other any another identity on
Facebook another persona maybe I have I have a 10 Facebook
and Instagram id and on different id there is another
photo like I'm using another like I have
Each Facebook profile has a different photo
But my stories is my story is only one
My story is only one my maybe only one
story maybe more than two stories.
I have two two persona stories. I have two story bible. Yeah.
In in one maybe I am a business uh woman entrepreneur.
I have this this this according to the profile and
in another maybe I am a simple simple woman.
I have just few restaurant and two three gas stations.
So this story story helps scammers to manage their
daily schedules to talk with everyone.
Like there is no need when when you have
a story and every day have a schedule.
You schedule at morning time when you when you wake up.
When you go to the office, when you come back to the office,
when you will do your lunch, when you will eat this, when you
go to the golf every day and every week have a schedule.
And the schedule you need to make the schedule by yourself.
And in report in report like there is a report group and
every scammers whenever they will come in the office.
So every scammers every persons need to share the the first
things need to share it is the daily scheduled.
Like which with which with which your persona
which things your persona going to do this.
So, you have something to do every day like,
Oh, today I'm going to the doctor.
Today I'm going to the bank or I'm picking
up my child or whatever it is. But it's part of the story bible.
And for that, you also need photo like
if you're going to the doctor, right?
Maybe victim ask I because he is already in love and you
know in love people's people people's want evidence.
He want photo where are you? I have no trust on you.
Just send me photo. So there is a photo.
There's a doctor photo just
Doctored photo. I'm sure with AI that's much easier to do now.
No there is AI and uh real photo also.
Yes, real photo like as I already told you from
uh Pinterest and there is a lot of Google. Yes.
So, how long are you talking to a victim before you
start like how long does it take them to fall in love
to the point where they want to give you money?
See it's depend on the victims.
Like suppose like if like I I I'm just giving you example
of mine because I already scammed with two people there.
It was not my choice because I was under pressure and I did that.
It was not my choice. Yes.
Of course. We know it wasn't your choice.
So there was a person he I was talking with him.
He was he was from USA but uh from living in he was like
born in India but shifted in USA from past 20 30 years. Okay.
At he was 72 year old man.
Okay. And my persona and age was 35 year.
Okay. I understand there one thing.
Uh because the person I was talking with him,
he was already having a his own daughter.
His age is 45 year like his daughter is bigger than me.
Yeah. His daughter was older than the persona.
So I started talking with him. Started talking with him.
Started talking with him.
After 1 month when I according to the like scripts when
I showed him about the crypto this this this this.
So he suddenly you know becomes uh from starting I was
just her friend like my persona was just her friend.
But when I start when I when I shared with him trading
about the trade this this this I'm going I'm
doing this trading and you will get better.
And after that he I saw him he fall in love with me.
And he like he shifted from friend to another way.
Uh okay. Yeah. He started to have feelings for your persona
And in that day in that day he was talking with me and he
said my wife is not happy with me from past 30 years.
That he's in love with. Yeah.
He said he is feeling lonely and uh like
he's like he never met person like me. And these kinds of.
So there is it's as you ask the questions like how
long it take time it's depend on the person.
Right right and so you kind of know from your bosses when to
talk about the crypto trading or when do you start to like
You know oh I'm making so much money on crypto. Yeah.
Yes. Yes. If the victim is too much rich.
So for that it take too much time. Maybe two months,
Maybe 3 months, maybe even 4 months.
But whenever he will invest and he will invest
100 million, 1 million, 2 million, 20 million,
even maybe 50 million he will invest.
Is that the man that you were scamming?
He invested that much or just some little victims do?
He he invested uh $11,500.
In first in first payment he invested 5,000 then
after that 5,000 did this he did this so.
There is the another part of the story.
And uh when I scammed another guy.
He was living he was he was also Indian but he
was living in the New York he was engineer
Yes and you know what happened with
him he was scammed from 10 times
He'd already been scammed 10 times.
Yes, he scammed already 10 times because
he told me he lost everything.
Even even he sold his car even his bank because he
get loan from the bank and he said I don't know
when bank will come and out me from this house
But he still gave you money.
He still give me $500. 500. Why he give me?
Because my boss chat with him and my boss told him he
will help he will help to recover the losses fund.
Oh, that's the other part of the scam, right?
I'll help you recover the losses if you've already lost money.
If you Yes, if you believe.
If you believe the the most hardest part of this scam
is you know what when victim understand like when
victim understand I scammed from someone.
So he definitely go into the trauma and he will think what I did.
Even many people society I mean many people
in US and other country even in India.
Even across the world you will see there is a lot
of people's they died because of the scam.
Because they don't care about the money.
They lost the person they were love with.
But in reality victim talking with the victim
and victim is looting the victim.
Yeah. Cuz you were a victim too.
And in benefits there is another person
is getting benefits from both of them.
And uh the another part is like if someone is investing okay
see like I I just scammed with you you just invest $500. Okay.
So when you invest $500 after that in 1 minute 2 minute
maybe 2 3 days 2 3 hours you will earn 1,000. Okay. 1,000.
You invest 500 and you will earn like you earned $1,000 US.
And you know the 1,000 is already fake.
There is a fake coin they're manipulating on the
website and this this is all the fake coins.
They're making it look like you invested in and
that money is growing on the fake website. Yeah.
But when you earn the 1,000 they they will told you you just need
to get they said you will withdraw this money no problem.
And they will give you withdraw.
Sometimes they'll give you a withdraw to encourage you to oh
This is the rule of this game.
You must need to give the refund of every single
person who is investing who is the victim. Wow.
So that they will invest more because
You gave them some money back.
Why they why they are giving some money back? Only not too much.
Only 100 or 200 like because victims don't
think they will lost their income.
They want to show the victim whenever you
want you can read your money from here.
Wow. They've really thought of everything, haven't they?
Like they really It's psychological and they've
thought of how to manipulate victims by using
victims of trafficking To manipulate them.
Another another part of the scam like if someone invest
his all money maybe maybe he have 20 million Okay.
And he invest all 20 millions money in this scam.
And after that there there is the another
part of the scam is beginning.
They will set if you want to withdraw all this money cuz there
is a whenever whenever victim try to withdraw all the money.
There is the there is the like kind of guideline
and this kinds of website they make.
They said you must need to uh pay your tax.
You have to pay the tax before you can get the money back.
So they get even more money.
In 20 million uh when they invest 20 million after
investing maybe they will the uh fake websites
website showing profit around 300 million.
And somebody believes that that their
20 million turned into 300 million.
Yes, they already believed.
Because in this scam there is also they are using AI arbitrage.
What AI arbitrage they are telling the
victims we are using AI arbitrage.
In AI arbitrage we are our work AI is doing our
work and we just need to stay and AI is already
mastering the this kinds of manipulation. Okay.
So they will after that they will get money for tax.
After that he will sold his house because
he want to withdraw his 300 million.
He sold his house after 1 million.
He sold his car everything when he invested in get nothing.
In the scam compound I saw I saw many people many
people's from like uh mostly people from USA
uh Canada like every corner in the world.
Mostly peoples they are investing.
They all are married and like they all are gentlemen.
They're mostly businessmen that are married.
They have good knowledge about everything but they still fall
in the trap because of all these social engineering.
Again I am telling you social engineering because it's it's
simple you know human human is human mind is very very weak.
Because if someone understand the human mind and
then it is very easy to manipulate very easy.
Like if we if we hack the computer it's take too much time.
We still need to do many things.
But if if a scammers want to hack someone mind there
is only few minutes he takes and he get everything.
So social engineering. As you see as you see in the story bible.
There is already everything is written.
I said everything is written.
Everything is written in the story bible.
They've thought of everything.
And the victim is in love. Okay.
I saw sometimes sometimes you know victim is asking uh
the persona asking maybe you have not much knowledge
this this and maybe we we both lost the money.
Corvette you know you know Corvette but
persona have his uncle sorry her uncle
Always an uncle I feel like there's always an
uncle in the story right my uncle really knows
how to do this and my uncle will you yes
Uncle and the bank story both are playing the crucial role in
the in all these because uncle have a too much experience.
Uh uncle have too much experience of all that I have already
scripted here because when I left from there.
So I shared 4200 pages of data to the Andy
Greenberg and I have a lot of things.
I have not only like I have everything like everything
how they use and they whatever they.
When you know and your uncle we were talking about uncle
your uncle is already experienced person uhhuh And
he is very businessman, very big businessman.
And he his work is only earning money from trading.
Did you believe when a victim? No. Oh, no problem.
His uncle is already earning too much. So we have no problem.
Yeah. His uncle's very rich, right?
Yes. Very very rich and very experienced person.
We are not going to loss, right?
So you know sometimes uh two things happens.
I also I also know that sometimes in America in other countries
like Germany like many other countries when bank bank
tell the victim don't do this this is a scam.
But you know in reality what happened that scammer is already
prepared the victim before he go to the bank.
They already washed his mind.
You know how how they washed his mind? They will said to him.
Like they they already created their own story.
They said today I was in the bank when I started to uh transfer
wire uh transfer my money into the exchanging app.
So bank refused to do that. Banks told me this is the scam.
I said this is not scam. This is my own money.
FBI called me don't do this is the scam.
So they told the victim in actually bank don't want to bank don't
want you invest your money in another platform because bank
Bank doesn't want you to the bank wants
to make money off of your money.
They don't want you to invest it somewhere else. Oh my goodness.
So, they've already gotten to their mind and brainwashed
them and and said, you know, oh, they they might
tell you it's a scam, but this isn't a scam.
That, you know, there's other things that are a scam.
This is just the bank not wanting you
to move your money away from them. Oh my god.
Here is uh one more thing.
So, I told you about the AI arbitrage.
So for AI arbitrage there is there is
there is a script they are using.
Now what which kind of script?
I will I will tell you because here
is the script about AI arbitrage. Yes.
Here is here is in AI arbitrage whenever scammers talk with the
victim she said I just checked the income from AI arbitrage to
donate money to help poor children and renovate temples.
So the persona the persona is not only not
only a woman he she's earning the money.
He's very very very very simple and very empathetic woman.
Because she's helping the poor.
Yes. She's helping the poor. She's renovate the temple.
She is renovate the mosque.
If she's Muslim, if she's Christian and
she is going to renovate the church. Yeah. Yes.
And and another point I I didn't do much.
No, I just missing deposit depositing money for
AI arbitrage to generate daily income for me.
Do you know arbitrage? So now the scammer is asking question.
The victim about about the like he scammer want
to put in his mind about the AI arbitrage.
Now he is going to shift the victims to like
from active income to passive income.
So that's why he is going to use this.
And he is also they give the example.
For example gold is $1975 in market A. And market B is $985.
If gold is bought from market A and solid
market B will make a profit of $10.
My scammer is giving example to the victims
the benefits of AI arbitrage.
We just need to buy and then we need to sort.
This like it's a too much big scripts if we like
the the meaning of whole script is simple.
Scammer is going to scammer want to invest victim victim
invest more and more money in the trading platform.
So that's why he's manipulating his mind to shifting
his mind to air this this this this kind of Yes.
How did it how did you feel doing this scam?
Because you were trapped. You didn't have a choice.
Was it really hard on your mind?
Yes, definitely. When when Yes.
When I was uh when I scammed the first person then I just
at the time I think it was around uh 3 4 3 4 p. m.
So my boss scammed with the victim.
I was contacted the 72 year old victim. He was very rich person.
I also like in chat I also did lot of things like I
want he understand that but he didn't understand.
I I I try to do many things like try to do many things like
he maybe he understand this but he never understand.
He believe on my everything because my boss was
also chatting with him about everything.
So when my boss collect collected money from him
so you know I I got outside and I cried.
I said what I did because there was no option for me what I do.
And I already I already promised with myself whenever
I will get money and I will definitely and so I will
return the the 12,000 of us what I I will return.
I will I will definitely return them because
they they don't know about I'm also victim.
And I will tell them in future I will tell
them I was also victim at the time.
So don't feel like someone scammed you and you you believe.
This is interesting story.
I was my persona was living in the Orlando Florida.
And there was a there was a temple around I think
12 to 15 kilometers from my my house.
When when our when when my boss told me you have not need to talk
talk talk with the victim, and you know what victim did.
Victim walked victim took his taxi
from like drive his taxi from uh
No no there is a place his name is uh kind something of land.
I don't know which land behind the land there is state in USA
around I think he drive from another states and come to me
search me here in Orlando of freedom and send me a photo.
Hey I'm here where are you
That's heartbreaking and did your boss allow you to talk
to them or you just cut them off and not reply?
When when when victim tell I'm not going to invest if he stop
to invest then there is no need to waste time on him.
And they will tell find another find
another find another find another.
And there is hundreds of people like hundreds of
people and they messaging hundred of people every
day commenting hundreds of people every day.
And definitely you will get lot of people.
And still you to see before mostly I'm not using Facebook.
Before two days I just uh made a Facebook ID
and I was just checking I was checking on Facebook
there is a lot of Facebook ID lot of
Damn Facebook ID we were both told to create in the compound.
Hi, it's Karisse in the future.
Uh we're going to stop this interview here.
Uh it's just too long for one episode. He.
Mohammad had so much to say and I'm so glad he did.
Uh there's more to his story.
He's going to talk more about uh his tips for how people can
identify deep fakes, which I found really interesting.
As well as some of his uh story of
how he escaped the scam compound.
And he actually told us something that
he hadn't told anyone before.
About uh part of his journey getting out of Laos well
getting out of the compound and then getting out
of Laos with immigration and without documents and
all of that and so it's really fascinating.
Make sure that you subscribe to Fraudology so you're alerted as
soon as that next episode episode comes out next Thursday.
Uh you won't be disappointed.
And thanks so much for watching this
and listening to this as well.
Uh I really enjoyed talking to Mohammad and appreciated
his time and I hope you do too. Thanks so much.