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Fraudology

Salvaguardas de IA: por que os prompts de IA não são escaláveis no combate à fraude

Imagem do podcast Fraudology para o Caso n.º 429, com retratos do convidado Assaf Kipnis e da apresentadora Karisse Hendrick.

Bem-vindos de volta ao Fraudology.

Assaf Kipnis juntou-se a mim pela primeira vez em 2023, pouco depois de sair do Facebook, para uma conversa em duas partes sobre como os agentes mal-intencionados usam as plataformas de redes sociais. Desde então, trabalhou na Google e numa startup de IA, criou a sua própria consultora e dedicou a maior parte do seu tempo a desenvolver soluções com IA. Atualmente, passa cerca de 90% do seu dia de trabalho a desenvolver soluções com IA, o que faz dele a pessoa certa para responder a uma pergunta que ouço frequentemente dos responsáveis pelo combate à fraude: como podemos usar a IA sem perder o controlo sobre ela?

Falamos sobre as salvaguardas da IA e por que Assaf acredita que elas precisam ser implementadas no código. Também discutimos por que combater abusos não é o mesmo que bloquear, o que acontece com uma equipe de combate à fraude quando a liderança espera que a IA a substitua e por que a governança da IA é muito mais difícil quando só começa após a implantação. Ao longo da conversa, Assaf conta como desenvolve ferramentas de investigação, por que trata a IA como um agente malicioso e por que acredita que não é possível administrar uma empresa com um chatbot.

O que vai ouvir neste episódio:

  • Porque é que a IA altera mais a velocidade da fraude do que as táticas, e o que isso significa para quem a combate e tem também de continuar a desempenhar as suas funções.
  • Por que combater abusos não se resume a bloquear, e por que os líderes que pensam assim esperam que a IA substitua a equipe.
  • Como a IA aumenta a capacidade dos analistas de fraude, desde conduzir várias investigações em simultâneo até transformar um relatório que levaria vários dias numa revisão rápida.
  • Porque é que as equipas de combate à fraude perdem conhecimento quando alguém sai e como uma base de conhecimento com IA pode preservar o que essas pessoas aprenderam.
  • Porque é que a IA nunca diz «não sei» e porque é que um chatbot não é o mesmo que um motor de pesquisa
  • Porque é que as más decisões são mais importantes do que as alucinações e porque não se pode confiar sem reservas nos resultados da IA.
  • Como o código determinístico, e não os prompts, mantém uma IA não determinística dentro dos limites, incluindo um alerta sobre folhas de cálculo.
  • Por que a governança de IA após a implantação é difícil, desde a proliferação de agentes de IA até a definição consistente do que constitui uma tomada de controle de conta.
  • Por que decisões de caixa-preta falham quando departamentos jurídicos, tribunais ou autoridades policiais exigem provas.

Deve ouvir este episódio se:

  • Lidera ou integra uma equipa de prevenção de fraude e pedem-lhe que utilize IA em parte do seu trabalho
  • Receia que a direção espere que a IA substitua a sua equipa de combate à fraude, ou é o responsável que está a ponderar essa opção
  • Está a desenvolver agentes de IA para investigações de fraude e quer saber onde devem ser aplicadas salvaguardas
  • Precisam de explicar a governança da IA à equipa jurídica, de compliance ou à equipa executiva
  • Quer uma razão prática para definir salvaguardas no código e não num prompt
Notas do episódio

A IA muda a velocidade da fraude, não a tática

Assaf passou 13 anos a trabalhar nas áreas de segurança, confiança e proteção, e fraude. O que as maiores empresas lhe ensinaram foi a lidar com a escala. São as primeiras cobaias de todos os agentes maliciosos, o que permite perceber o que funciona em grande escala e o que falha um ano depois, quando uma mudança desencadeia outra. Ele observa o mesmo padrão quando os líderes resolvem o problema que têm à frente por ser aquele que conseguem medir hoje. Do lado dos atacantes, afirma que a industrialização começou por volta de 2019 e 2020. A IA contribui sobretudo para aumentar a escala. Os atacantes conseguem criar ferramentas mais depressa, vendê-las e copiar os métodos uns dos outros. Os defensores têm a mesma liberdade para inovar, mas precisam de continuar a desempenhar as suas funções enquanto o fazem. A IA muda a velocidade da fraude, não a tática.

Combater abusos não é bloquear

Assaf apresentou um argumento que não vou esquecer. Combater abusos não é bloquear. Bloquear é fácil e mensurável e, quando uma equipe entende que seu trabalho é bloquear, a liderança também passa a enxergá-lo dessa forma. Pergunte aos líderes o que a IA pode fazer, e a primeira resposta será eliminar tarefas repetitivas. Se o trabalho é bloquear, eles reduzem esse trabalho. Ouço o mesmo de empresas que disseram a todos os departamentos para usar IA em 25% do trabalho ou reduzir as horas de trabalho humano. Algumas dessas empresas agora estão arcando com os custos dos tokens e pedindo às equipes que reduzam o uso. Reduzir o quadro de pessoal com IA é a proposta mais fácil de vender a um diretor financeiro, diz Assaf, mas esse é o objetivo errado. A IA amplia a capacidade dos analistas de fraude. Um relatório que levava dias agora exige apenas uma revisão rápida, e seis analistas, cada um conduzindo várias investigações, nunca ficam sem trabalho. Para bloquear, é preciso detectar, e, para detectar, é preciso ter pessoas.

Zombies, conhecimento e as pessoas que o detêm

Compartilhei uma analogia que muitos profissionais de combate à fraude já me ouviram usar. A fraude não é um dragão que você mata uma única vez. Ela se parece mais com zumbis que voltam maiores e adaptados à sua última defesa. Assaf incorpora cada fracasso ao seu repertório. Isso funciona para uma pessoa, mas uma empresa precisa de uma forma de fazer isso coletivamente. Ele contou que estava em uma sala quando ouviu um colega dizer que havia investigado o mesmo nome de usuário cinco anos antes. Esse é o conhecimento que as equipes de combate à fraude perdem quando as pessoas saem ou quando a IA as substitui. Uma base de conhecimento de IA em constante atualização pode preservar o que a equipe aprendeu. Mencionei uma preocupação que ouço de líderes de combate à fraude: os funcionários temem que compartilhar o que sabem os torne substituíveis. Assaf diz que a retenção de conhecimento não é um problema novo e que se trata de uma questão cultural. As empresas contratam mais pela capacidade de discernimento do que pelo conhecimento, e é esse discernimento que permite identificar o próximo ataque.

Porque é que a IA nunca diz «não sei»

Assaf observou que as pessoas acham que a IA pensa como uma pessoa. Uma pessoa que esbarra numa porta fechada aprende com isso. A IA pode voltar a esbarrar nessa porta, porque, para ela, o contexto é apenas um conjunto de dados sem profundidade. Acrescentei algo que aprendi: a IA nunca diz «não sei». Certa vez, um amigo e eu perguntámos a uma ferramenta de IA sobre táticas de fraude que tínhamos inventado, e ela deu-nos definições com toda a confiança. Assaf explicou que um chatbot não é um motor de pesquisa. Ele não lhe pede que fale sobre um tema. Pede-lhe que pesquise e encontre artigos de especialistas, e às vezes não encontra nada. Preocupam-me as fontes, porque muito do que os profissionais de combate à fraude sabem está apenas nas suas cabeças, e grande parte da informação pública vem de publicações de fornecedores que terminam com uma proposta comercial. Uma empresa que despeça um responsável pelo combate à fraude e passe a consultar um chatbot terá respostas que não consegue verificar.

Más decisões, não alucinações, e por que o código define os limites

Assaf diz que o verdadeiro problema não são as alucinações. É uma decisão que o modelo tomou com base no contexto de que dispunha e, segundo ele, em cerca de metade das vezes, o modelo não chegaria à mesma conclusão que ele. As respostas da IA não são determinísticas. São probabilísticas e não conseguem ser consistentes. É possível confiar nas respostas da IA? Por si só, não. A solução dele é impor limites através de código. Se quiser um sim ou um não, recorra ao código e deixe que a IA o escreva. Também alerta para os riscos das folhas de cálculo. Se entregar um conjunto delas à IA, esta pode tomar decisões que não consegue ver e que corrompem os seus dados. Primeiro, use código para as analisar e transformar em documentação. Assaf incorpora mecanismos de proteção para investigações de fraude no seu próprio ambiente de execução e, se a IA tentar apagar alguma coisa, o código impede-a. É por isso que trata a IA como um agente de ameaça. A IA precisa de limites, e estes têm de ser impostos pelo código, não por skills ou prompts. Como ele próprio disse, não se pode gerir uma empresa com um chatbot.

Governança de IA após a implantação

Perguntei o que ele diria às equipas que participaram no nosso boot camp de IA na Merchant Fraud Alliance preocupadas com a governança da IA. O conselho dele é o mesmo: implementar mecanismos de proteção e diretrizes no código. As empresas adotam a IA, dizem a todos para usarem os seus créditos e criam coisas que ninguém reviu, algo a que ele chama o pior pesadelo de um engenheiro de software. A governança leva tempo porque o modelo é um adversário que tenta contornar os controlos. Constrói-se um muro e ele passa por baixo. É possível começar a implementar a governança da IA após a entrada em produção, mas dá muito trabalho. Um comerciante descreveu a proliferação de agentes de IA, com cerca de 27 agentes que identificavam a apropriação de contas de formas diferentes. Como definir esse conceito de forma consistente? Assaf acrescentou que, num processo de produção de prova judicial, poderia ser necessário determinar qual dos 27 está certo. As decisões tomadas por uma caixa negra não se sustentam quando é preciso apresentar provas ao departamento jurídico, a um tribunal ou às autoridades policiais.

Pergunte porquê sempre que a IA falhar

Assaf terminou com um conselho que pretendo adotar. Quando a IA falhar, não se limite a dizer para corrigir o problema e seguir em frente. Pergunte por que aconteceu e faça uma análise da causa raiz. Observei que a IA não aprende necessariamente com os erros de ontem como nós. Assaf concordou que ela não sente a dor. A lição tem de vir da pessoa e ser incorporada no código.

Principais conclusões
  • Os responsáveis pelo combate à fraude devem manter a supervisão humana ao adotar a IA, pois a IA altera mais a velocidade da fraude do que as táticas utilizadas.
  • Combater abusos não é apenas bloquear, e uma equipa que encara o seu trabalho como uma tarefa de bloqueio leva os líderes a considerar substituí-la por IA.
  • A IA aumenta a capacidade dos analistas de fraude ao assumir tarefas tediosas, como a redação de relatórios, permitindo que realizem mais investigações.
  • Substituir as equipas de combate à fraude por IA leva à perda de conhecimento institucional, que uma base de conhecimento de IA em constante atualização só consegue preservar parcialmente.
  • É pela capacidade de discernimento que as empresas contratam, e é essa capacidade que permite detetar o próximo ataque.
  • A IA nunca diz «não sei». Instruções de pesquisa, fontes especializadas e respostas que possam ser verificadas são mais importantes do que uma resposta rápida de um chatbot.
  • As más decisões têm mais impacto do que as alucinações, e não se pode confiar sem reservas nos resultados da IA.
  • As salvaguardas da IA devem estar no código, e não em prompts ou competências, e as decisões de sim ou não devem ser tratadas por código determinístico.
  • A governação da IA é muito mais difícil após a implementação e tem de abranger a proliferação de agentes de IA e uma definição clara e única de eventos como a apropriação de contas.
  • As decisões tomadas por uma caixa-preta não resistirão ao escrutínio quando o departamento jurídico, um tribunal ou as autoridades policiais exigirem provas.
Conclusão final

Se há uma ideia a reter deste episódio, é que os mecanismos de proteção da IA são uma escolha de conceção, não um memorando de políticas. Um prompt pede ao modelo que se comporte. O código obriga-o a fazê-lo. O hábito de Assaf de perguntar porquê sempre que algo falha é um bom ponto de partida e aplica-se muito para além da IA. Erga as barreiras desde o início, conte com o modelo a procurar uma forma de passar por baixo delas e mantenha por perto as pessoas cujo discernimento lhe indica onde construir a seguir.

Entre em contacto com Assaf Kipnis | LinkedIn

Proprietário e consultor/assessor principal na ASK Consulting

Conecte-se com Karisse Hendrick | LinkedIn
Apresentadora do podcast Fraudology
Especialista premiada em fraudes cibernéticas
Consultora de prevenção de fraudes no comércio eletrônico
Assessora de startups, palestrante e
consultora de empresas de comércio da Fortune 500

Episode transcript
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:07
Welcome back to the Fraudology podcast.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:09
I am so glad you're here and I'm so glad that Assaf
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:13
Kipnis is joining me again on Fraudology.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:15
I had thought that it had only been like maybe a
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:18
year, year and a half since Assaf was with us.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:22
It was back in 2023 when I looked up the episode.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:25
Uh it was after he had left his job in Facebook and he talked
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:29
a lot about how bad actors and state actors were using social
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:33
media platforms for influencing political regimes and their
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:37
political influence using social media platforms.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:40
Which was really interesting. It was a two-part episode.
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Karisse Hendrick
00:44
It was really interesting.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:46
I believe it was episodes 195 and 196 from back in May of 2023
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:50
if you want to go back into the archives and look for them.
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Karisse Hendrick
00:54
We're now on like episode 430 something.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
00:56
So um so it was a while ago but it was really fascinating.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:00
Uh and I have kept tabs on Assaf's career
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:03
since and am really interested.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:05
He's doing a lot in the world of AI um using AI for
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:08
fraud investigations as well as other things.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:11
And he has a lot of thoughts on how companies should be using
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:15
AI and what they need to think about when using AI.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:19
And that is why I wanted to bring him on the podcast today.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:23
So Assaf, welcome back to Fraudology.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
01:37
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. It's been a long time.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:42
It has.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:42
And uh you know so I was just going to have you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:46
start maybe introducing your background.
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Karisse Hendrick
01:48
I know I asked you this question the last time you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:51
were here but it was three and a half years ago.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:55
Um how did you get started in fraud?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
01:57
What is your, where have you where have you worked and what
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
02:01
have you done at a high level um that brings you to now?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:05
So I've been in the space for about 13 years now.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:08
I started out in security engineering um and then early in
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:12
my career got to LinkedIn where I was there for about three
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:16
years working on trust and safety investigations.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:19
And when the team was very very small.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:21
We're working on every type of actor we're working on scraping on
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:26
uh child safety we were working on financially motivated actors.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:30
And then I moved uh in 2018 I moved to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:33
Facebook where I spent In five years.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:35
I was uh an investigator in the e-crime team.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:38
Then I managed the e-crime team.
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Assaf Kipnis
02:40
Um working on specifically on financially motivated actors, ad fraud,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:45
uh a political influence for profit and a lot of scams.
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Assaf Kipnis
02:48
And then we talked.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:50
Uh after that I was at Google for about a year and a
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:53
half working on uh scams, how Google products can identify
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
02:57
scams at scale across all of their products.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:00
Uh then I went to ElevenLabs which is an AI startup.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:03
I was there for a short amount of time
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:06
running their uh investigations team.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:08
Uh and then over the last year I got much deeper into
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:12
consulting and found out that I really liked it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:15
Uh I started my own consultancy uh ASK consulting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:18
Where I do both investigations and AI builds and advise companies
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:23
on how to merge AI into their processes, how to better do
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:27
investigations, how to superpower their uh analysts uh with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:31
Um I will say working at ElevenLabs was a very big eye
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:34
opener for me because they're an AI first company.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:38
So, I've I've dove deep into uh building with
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
03:41
AI and that's 90% of what I do now.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:04
Wow. Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:05
You've you've gotten to be on the front, you know, when you've
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:09
been on the front lines, you've gotten to do some really
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:12
interesting things and see the scams that are new, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:16
Well, there really are no new scams,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:19
but there's new usages of scams.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:21
There's new ways that scams are being, you know, um, used, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:25
And there's new technology to superpower
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:28
those scams and industrialize them.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:30
But you've been really on the front
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:32
lines of seeing the newest thing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:35
Because you've worked for some of the
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Karisse Hendrick
04:37
biggest companies in Silicon Valley.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:39
Um, you've had to be, you know, on your toes, so to speak, to
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:43
find new ways to identify them as fast as they're creating them.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
04:49
Yes.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:50
Which makes yeah makes you a perfect candidate for a consultant.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:54
Because you've you've seen the hardest stuff and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
04:57
the worst stuff and you've tackled it right.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
05:00
So to now be able to help other companies, especially you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
05:04
know small to mid companies, some large companies.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
05:07
Um, you know, be able to identify problems
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
05:10
whether using AI or not.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
05:11
Um, I think that puts you in a really good position.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:20
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:21
And one of the biggest things I learned
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:23
from these larger companies is scale.
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Assaf Kipnis
05:26
Is what works at scale, what doesn't work at scale.
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Assaf Kipnis
05:29
Beyond being um these companies are always the first
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:32
guinea pig for any threat actor to try things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:36
So yes, you get to know the new things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:38
Um but you also learn you get to see what breaks at scale
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:42
or what works at scale or if you do one thing how does it
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:46
the cascade um a year later into something that breaks. So
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
05:56
Yeah,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
05:57
That is a huge thing about working with these companies.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:01
That's a really good point.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:02
Yeah, you get to see what solutions work and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:05
which solutions break, you know, at scale.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:08
That makes perfect sense.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:13
Yeah, it's it it's been very interesting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:15
And a lot of times you after you've been in these places, you get
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:20
to be the you get to be kind of the person who says, "Ah, yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:24
" You can do that, but go see what it will affect later. Just
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:31
Yes,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:31
It's going to blow up somewhere else that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
06:33
you're not going to be touching. And we all we all been there.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:38
Because fraudsters and scammers, they're
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:40
constantly looking for the gap, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:42
They're constantly looking for the vulnerability.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:45
And so if what you build at scale has a gap or
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:47
a vulnerability, you know, hey, they're going
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:50
to break this once they figure it out.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:52
They're going to find that gap.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:54
So, why don't we fix that gap now?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:56
And that's not always what, you know, what they want to hear,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
06:59
what the what the big companies want to hear, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:02
They want a lot of times they just want to fix the problem right
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:06
now, not fix the problem that's going to happen in six months.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:10
It's I want to fix the problem that's right
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:12
in front of me and I can measure today.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:14
Yes,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:14
I think measure is the big one.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:17
That's a challenge for people in fraud.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:19
Because you know sure we can we can stop the challenge
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:23
today but we want to stop the challenge tomorrow
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:26
and the next day too at the same time.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:28
And leadership often especially I would imagine at some
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:32
of the bigger companies, it's all about standing out.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:36
And so they want to be able to measure it so they can
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:39
put it on their resume so they can get a promotion.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:44
It it it's it's somewhat of a perverse incentive
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
07:47
that some people don't like to hear, but
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:52
Yeah. No, I can see that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:53
Um, so how does AI fit into your work that
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
07:56
you're doing as a consultant now?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:00
So I'm just building things constantly.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:02
I think usually I have six terminals open building all kinds
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:06
of stuff together cuz that's how my brain thinks.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:09
I got to wait on one. So let's start five more. Um,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
08:16
I think 80% of us have ADHD in fraud.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
08:18
And I'd be willing to stand by that percentage.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:21
Oh, yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:22
And, um, so one of the things that I enjoy the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:25
most that I built is an investigative system.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:28
So when I left the big companies, it was I it was
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:31
on my mind when I was at the big companies.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:34
I said, "How would I ever do an investigation again?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:37
" I I sit here sitting on all the data ever.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:40
And if I don't have this data again, how do I find anything
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:44
like how do I do open source investigations?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:47
And open source investigations for people who
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:50
are listening who do them, they are lengthy.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:53
They take a really long time. You got to document everything.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
08:57
So I started building myself a tool of
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:00
okay, how do I do an investigation?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:02
It started with stuff that I did in the past about how do I find from
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:06
an ad what are the other ads that are running the same fraud?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:11
Who are these actors? Where are they living?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:13
How do I find uh affiliate marketing? So you can do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:17
It just takes a really long time of opening a lot of websites.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:21
So uh and finding patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:23
So I started building a system that I provide a seed and then
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:27
it extrapolates everything and continuously comes back to me
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:31
and says okay I found this which direction are we going?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:35
And or I say okay we found this is interesting, but if I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:39
was in the weeds I would cluster here and cluster there
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:42
and then find the similarities between the clusters.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:46
So AI, the its best uh feature that it it finds commonalities.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
09:50
It finds patterns. So
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
10:02
Yeah,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:03
Just help me find patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:04
So um I've been using AI for a lot of automation of processes
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:08
that are tedious and take up a long time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:11
Uh and then into finding patterns in um in abusive behavior or
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:15
patterns in data, that will give me um what I probably would have missed.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:20
Or I remember looking at graphs that were 5,000 nodes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:24
I can't look at a graph that's I can't make sense person.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:28
But AI can make sense of the of the graph, give me something.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:32
And then I can I can evaluate the assumption that AI makes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:36
Or I can say no throw it back try again.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:38
Or I can say oh okay this actually makes sense with what I found.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:43
And I built a bunch of other tools that kind of make my life
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:47
easier, but the investigative tooling has been a big one.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:50
And the other one is for my own work and my own consultancy
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:54
I struggle, And I'm sure a lot of people are
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
10:57
you like I will struggle managing my work.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
11:06
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:06
Uh I remember asking people how do you record everything
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:09
that you're doing and do you use a spreadsheet?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
11:12
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:13
So it took a year, but I built a system for myself that essentially
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:17
I just get up in the morning and say what do I have to do today.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:21
And, or what did that person say to me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:23
And that that, I go to that client.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:26
I say what did that person say to me yesterday, and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:29
what was our conversation about that we recorded,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:32
and what is the actual work I need to do here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:35
So that has changed the way I work because I don't have to well I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:39
don't take notes anymore which is really nice, but I don't have
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:43
to go have the mental load of everything spinning in my head.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:47
Of what's the work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:48
And then that's extremely hard when you're working on multiple
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:52
projects, which was always really hard for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:55
Uh, but now I can work on six projects at the same time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
11:59
And I'll just stop this one.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:01
I'll say, Okay, where did I stop on this one?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:04
What did these people say?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:05
What were the emails that came in since
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:08
the time I last spoke to them?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:10
And what changed and how did they uh like what I wrote?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:13
And then continue from there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:15
So those are the main things uh the investigation stuff and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:19
the knowledge base uh has been extremely helpful for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
12:23
And and clients that I've been working with.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:26
Yeah, I would imagine.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:27
So, talking about doing investigations and all of that, what are
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:31
into scams or ad fraud or whatever you're working on, what are
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:35
some of the trends that you're seeing on the bad actor side?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:39
Uh, I mean, I just did a presentation at MFA that I then
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:43
redid for the podcast two weeks ago or 3 weeks ago now.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:47
That where we talked about, or I talked about, how
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:50
bad actors are using AI to industrialize fraud.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:53
And they're they're scaling. They're scaling at at a rapid rate.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
12:58
Um, a lot of, you know, every measurement that we have
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:01
of specific types of payment fraud, especially.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:04
Because payment fraud is easier to measure
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:07
than some of the other fraud.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:09
Um because of chargebacks, but every measurement that
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:12
we have, you know, around like card testing, well,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:16
that's up over a 100% in the last few months.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:19
And ATOs is up over 78% in the last like quarter,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:22
because it's much easier easier to do with AI.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:25
Um, are there other things that you're seeing from the
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:29
bad actor side that that are changing because they
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:32
now have access to these superhuman computers?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:35
Or these supercomputers really.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:48
I think the industrialization has been going on since 2019 2020.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:52
Like really deep. Um,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:56
The fraud as a service and all of that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:58
Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
13:59
Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
13:59
And if you asked me a year ago, I would say eh,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:01
I don't think they're using AI that much. Um,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
14:04
Yeah, even six months ago, I probably wouldn't have said that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:07
And now I'm it's AI is this is the interesting part.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:10
I think AI is used for scale versus uh changing anything.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:14
So you have you have the ability.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:16
So the same way that I have the ability to now create tools
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:20
that I want to play around with, anybody else can do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:24
So you can just build thing in a in a in a much faster way.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:28
And you can innovate on the speed versus innovate on the tactic.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:32
So in a in places where you don't have the capacity
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:35
or the capability to get to a very large amount
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:39
of people, then you've got to be real crafty.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:42
Um because there's only x amount of stuff that I can do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:45
But now I can have AI write the code for me to do stuff a lot faster.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:50
And that also superpowered the the fraud economy.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:53
Because now everybody can make tools.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:56
So now you can sell the tools because in the end
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
14:59
not everybody is going to be working with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:02
Uh I feel that uh on the defender, it's really it's it's a really
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:06
weird dichotomy that on the defender side you you hear people
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:10
saying oh thread actors are so good at AI and they're amazing
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:14
at it and they're doing all these crazy hacky things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:18
And you ask so how is AI on the defender side? I said backer side.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:22
How do we Oh, it's awful and we can't use it and we hate it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:26
Like, they're people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:28
Attackers are people like you and they might hate it, too.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:31
I think the the the bigger difference here is that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:35
they the attacker has a lot more freedom to kind
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:38
of play around and try, uh and innovate.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:41
While defenders have to continue doing their
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:44
job while they're trying to innovate.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:46
But I haven't seen something that's like
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:49
or I'm seeing chat bots running a mock.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:51
I I just uh I think people using chatbots a little
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:55
bit more for fraudulent transactions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
15:57
But then also the defender side that doesn't really know
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:01
how to digest chat bots yet, or virtual assistants.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:04
But it, I am seeing the attacks just being more.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:07
Before if they were they were, let's say in order to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:11
get a fake account you would have to reach out to a a
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:14
fake account farm in Bangladesh and they would create
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:18
accounts for you and they would sell it to you.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:21
You can now do it yourself.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:23
You can go buy the tool or make the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:25
tool and kind of make it yourself. And play around with it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:29
And the stakes are low.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:31
So I think it's just um the velocity of the attacks became faster.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:35
Because it's easier and it uh it kind of promotes this community.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:39
That you can just sell new tools, that before had to be expert.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
16:44
That you had to have an expertise in it to make it.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
16:52
Yes.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
16:53
And oftentimes there were multiple people
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
16:55
involved in one attack, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
16:57
Because you needed multiple people's expertise
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:00
to complete the cycle of one attack. I just hit my microphone.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:04
Sorry about that guys.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:08
Uh the the thing is the expertise still sits there.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:11
You still need someone who knows what they're doing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:15
Yes. But not maybe not as many, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:17
You don't need like one expert in this and one expert
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:20
in that and one expert in that as much.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:23
The thing is you can proliferate it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:25
You can build a tool that has the understanding.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:27
You have it has the knowledge and I'll just use it.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:31
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:32
Um and that's, this is where I see also a gap in defending.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:35
Is the the before we always had every attack
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:38
always came from some sort of playbook.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
17:43
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:44
Always. And nobody got that then.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:46
But I don't know if anybody gets it now, but now
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:49
the playbooks are are a lot more robust.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:52
They're a lot more um available.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:54
Because you can replicate you take something that someone made and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
17:58
replicate it for yourself and just move on or sell it yourself.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:04
Yeah, those are all good points and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:06
things that I'm seeing as well.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:08
And then, you know, you started a little bit to talk about
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:12
the trends and themes that defenders are seeing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:15
You know, um, on the good side of fraud.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:18
And I'm seeing several, seeing and hearing about,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:21
you know, several different themes about AI.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:24
That, um, I mentioned to you a little bit before
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:27
we recorded, but I'll mention a few now.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:30
You know there were companies six, seven, eight months
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:33
ago that were giving directives to every department.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:37
Saying okay by this date you have to be using AI for up to
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:41
25% of your or for 25% of your job for your entire team.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:44
Or you were tasked with reducing human hours.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:47
Um how whatever that metric was they
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:50
were like doing these guidelines.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:52
And then you know the problem was is that nobody
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:55
knew what to use AI for at first, right? It took a little while.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
18:59
Uh and then now there are some companies that are using
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:03
it for things like, you know, chargeback responses.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:07
Which are still pretty manual.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:09
But that's another, uh they're not able to get the data from
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:13
one place to the next to autopop populate everything yet.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:16
Um and so there's still some manual work in that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:20
But um they're also using it for you know
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:22
uh data extraction and running reports.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:25
Or um you know different different use cases.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:28
And um what I've noticed happening is the hut.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:31
Now that these companies that had this very aggressive directive
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:35
are realizing, oh we told them to use it and use it as
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:39
much as possible to reduce, you know, the amount of
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:42
human, you know, hours that we needed to pay out.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
19:46
But now we have to pay the tokens.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:02
Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
20:03
Uh so now they're saying, "Wait, wait, wait.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
20:05
Now we need you to pull it back.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
20:07
" And I think that's that's one thing I'm seeing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
20:10
Um do you have thoughts on that one?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:13
Oh yes. Um so I want to start from where we started.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:16
And I think the problem is a mis is a is a fundamental
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:20
misunderstanding from leadership.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:22
And sometimes it's also fraud leadership or abuse leadership.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:26
That's abuse fighting is blocking. And I will die on this hill.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:30
The thing so I've been thinking about this and I think things are
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:34
just like as we're talking kind of falling together into place for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:39
One of the things that I really hate
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:41
about abuse fighting is blocking.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:44
Uh blocking anything, blocking content, disabling
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:47
accounts, uh uh blocking websites. I I find it useless.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:51
Uh and perform performative.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:52
So the thing is if you're as a and I'm I have a
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:56
feeling I'm going to make some people unhappy.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
20:59
But if if you're as as a team uh a profession and not necessarily
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:03
a profession but if if your job as a team if how you
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:06
see your job as a team is blocking things, then your
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:10
leadership thinks your job is blocking things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:13
And blocking things is easy. It's straightforward. It's menial.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:17
And when when you talk to leadership when you talk to leadership
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:21
and you'll say what can you do with AI the first
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:25
answer is always how can I remove menial work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:28
And abuse fighting is blocking I'll just reduce that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:31
And then the the it hits that that's not what that is.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:35
Blocking is a tool that you can use when you when you're fighting
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:39
abuse it's not a very effective tool but it's tool you can measure best.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:44
So, to a degree, it's it's it's self-inflicted.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:47
We've spent so much time measuring how many accounts
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
21:51
we've taken down and how much content we remove,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
22:06
Right
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:07
And then to an outside reviewer, it seems menial.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:10
You're just blocking stuff. Cool.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:12
Or I've heard that you're the blocking team, which makes me ill.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:16
And then sure, I'll bring AI and it will block stuff.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:20
But then you start working at it and that's not the job.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:24
It's part of the job. But um blocking needs finding. How do you find?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:28
How do you investigate?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
22:32
Yes. How do you identify?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:33
Blocking needs understanding of patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:35
And you say yes AI can find patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:38
AI doesn't do doesn't do anything by itself.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:41
If you don't know to tell it to look for the patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:44
I I for example I can give my investigative
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:47
tool to my daughter who's 13.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:49
She'll find some stuff but it won't be very effective.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:53
She'll find stuff you can block.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:55
Which is great cuz I built her the thing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
22:57
But she won't be able to find like what's actually going on.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:01
How do we actually go to the to the root of this and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:05
finding and finding and making it difficult to act?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:08
Uh and that's what happens.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:10
You have either abuse teams that are now less people
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:13
who are doing the same blocking job they were
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:16
doing before just people are overworked.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:19
Or teams that have completely been gutted and all
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:22
the things that people know how to do is gone.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:25
Because the the the leadership is like oh you just block stuff.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
23:30
Yeah,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:32
AI block stuff. Great. Find the stuff, block the stuff.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:35
Do uh image image searches, which is also useless.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:39
Or uh word matching and block it or make do a classifier.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:42
And to me, that's that's the real crime here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:45
Like you're losing all the actual knowledge here.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
23:49
And you're not going to get it back.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
23:54
I get what you're saying.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
23:55
That it is easy to slip into the trap of
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
23:58
thinking that our job is blocking.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:00
And sometimes I slip into that trap too.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:03
I think our job is identifying for sure. And finding.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:06
Ideally think that it should be stopping
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:09
the root cause of the issue, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:11
So finding how they're getting in finding the vulnerability
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:15
fixing that vulnerability and changing changing that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:19
And unfortunately a lot of times that takes
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:22
resource extra resources than you have.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:24
A lot of times online companies aren't looking at those signals.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:29
They aren't or they they aren't ingesting those
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:32
signals the signals that they need to identify
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:35
the bad actors earlier in the stream.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:37
And that's also something I talked a lot about in my presentation
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:42
was how fraud is no longer happening just at the
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:45
point of transaction or the point of login.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:48
It's happening throughout the process.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:50
And if you're able to identify it from the moment they step
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:54
on your platform, or your website, all the way through, and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
24:58
you're able to ingest all of those signals all the way through,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:02
you can have a better picture of what they're doing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:06
And how you can stop them.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:07
Um, but not every company is there yet.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:10
Not every company has those signals or
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:13
has the ability to look upstream.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:15
And so that does turn them more in the default is blocking.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:19
Um the default is well we'll just keep playing whack-a-mole
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:23
and stopping them where we can find them.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:25
And that might mean stopping them at account creation.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:29
And then we measure how many accounts we you know we closed.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:33
Um and it does come down to measuring.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:35
Because you know it's people's jobs right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:38
They want to be able to tell their leadership they did something.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:43
And if you know they still can if they're
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:45
do if they're finding the root cause.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:48
And changing the you know what they can ingest
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:51
and how they can identify them earlier.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:53
They can say hey we've had you know x% less account
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
25:57
login, or you know account creation fraud,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:00
or account takeover fraud, or whatever.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:02
But it's just a different way of looking at it.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:05
Is is that basically what you're saying, as far as
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:09
what should be done instead of the blocking?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:12
Or did I oversimplify?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:17
No, what you're saying is is kind of how I'm thinking about it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:19
Sometimes you have to block stuff. I get that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:22
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:23
Um that that also erodes of the on the threat that erodes the threat
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:27
actor's abilities and makes it annoying to be on your platform.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:31
And I think that's the main goal.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:33
Your main goal is to make it annoying to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:36
be on their platform and expensive.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
26:39
Mhm. Always the goal.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:42
And and when I have when I see companies saying, "Well, we don't
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:46
need a fraud team anymore because we're just going to put AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:50
" I think it does two things.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:52
One, it just does not fight fraud at all.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:55
It's just it's like I'm not really sure how you're
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
26:58
bringing in something that's doesn't understand your
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:01
company, doesn't understand your customer.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:04
And even if you teach you the processes,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:07
first of all, who's doing that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:09
You're still going to struggle with having it go on its own.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:13
Uh and and and do things and make decisions that are are the correct
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:17
decisions for your use case or correct decisions for your company.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:22
On the other hand of that, it also causes
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:25
people not to want to use AI at all. I've spoken to people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:28
I said, "I'm building investigative tools with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:32
" And the first answer was, "Well, it's not going to take my job.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:36
" Okay.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:37
So, the I can't blame those people because that's what you hear.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:41
It's We just want to reduce headcount.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:44
And I still hear people uh in startups for AI startups and companies
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:48
that say we're going to use this to reduce headcount.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:52
Because that's the easiest way to get
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:54
into a CFO's heart saying I'm here. I'm going to reduce headcount.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
27:59
Uh the and it's wrong.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:00
The way I see it and at least the way
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:03
I use it for me, it's a superpower.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:05
I can do things that I couldn't do before.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:08
And yes, I can do four, five, six investigations at a time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:12
Are you telling me that you only have four
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:15
to five to six investigations at a time?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:17
As as as a company that fights fraud? No. You have six analysts.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:22
If each of them can do two to six investigations
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:25
at a time, they'll never run out of work.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
28:30
Oh, that's true.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:31
Because, and and I think that comes with another perception that we
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:35
talked about earlier, that some people who are less who are some
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:38
in leadership that are less understanding of what fraud means.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:42
It's like oh we took down this cluster of accounts.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:45
So it's done, right? It's never going to come back. We won.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:49
And if that's how you think about it, then
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:51
we don't really need a police force.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:54
Because we took down the guy standing on the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
28:56
street or girl standing on the street.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
28:59
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:00
Selling drugs. We're good. We won, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:03
We don't have a drug problem anymore.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:04
We took down the drug dealer. Yeah. That's a good point.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:08
The the perception is is is wrong because you're you're just looking
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:12
at it as and I still see that and it still boggles my mind.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:16
People still think it's that one to five dudes sitting somewhere.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:21
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:22
Running scams like that hasn't been the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:24
case since the last decade at least.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:27
No, we're talking about scams compounds, which actually
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:30
my last guest on the podcast escaped a scam compound
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:34
in Laos, which was very interesting.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
29:38
That is
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:38
Um and crazy. Um is a crazy story.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:40
But um you know, we've got, you know, criminal organizations.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:44
We've got state actors that are funding their com their country's
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:48
military abilities based on, you know, transaction fraud and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:52
and other types of fraud and banking and and other places.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:56
I mean, we it's industrialized.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
29:58
It's no longer a few guys sitting in a basement at
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
30:01
their mom's house like you know people picture.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
30:05
You're absolutely right.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:09
The perception for some reason is still that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:12
And oh I've I heard people oh I blocked this person's um device.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:16
Cool.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
30:20
He'll be back with a proxy device. Yeah,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:24
It's cheap.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:24
And that's another thing that AI AI made things even cheaper.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:28
They were cheap before. They're cheaper now.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
30:31
A lot cheaper. And that allows them to scale.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:34
Yeah. The, and the thing is it allows the threat actors to scale.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:38
Right? You said that. What are companies doing?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:41
Replacing instead of scaling.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
30:47
You're right.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:48
So scale your people. Make them do the job faster, better.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:51
Uh make them not do the stuff that they're, for example,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:55
the thing I hate doing most is writing the report.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
30:58
I would spend days writing the report.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:05
The OSINT report. Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:05
I now spend 10 seconds writing. I did the investigation.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:08
And now I hate that part. Write the report for me.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:12
I'll read it to make sure that it's what I
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:14
said, which my process does that anyway. And off we go.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:18
Um, it releases me as an investigator from a lot
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:21
of the things that take me a really long time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:24
And allow me, not just by being able to automate things, it
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:28
allows me to just not do things that I don't want to do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
31:32
That would take me so long because they just take me a long time.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:38
Yeah. Um, you reminded me a minute ago of this analogy.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:41
That I feel like everyone in fraud has heard at one point now.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:45
Because I used to present about it at like so many conferences.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:50
Um but it was the fact that so many people who fight
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:53
fraud, or their leaders, uh you know their leaders
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
31:56
think of fraud as fighting a dragon. Like it's one single attack.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:01
And you use all the same tools that you used
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:04
for the last dragon that you fought.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:06
And it's pretty predictable how you're going to
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:09
slay that dragon, because you did it before.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:12
And you, once you slay that dragon, you can go
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:15
back to your village and do another job.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:18
But what it really is is it's like fighting zombies.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:21
That continually are, you know, reiterating
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:24
themselves and changing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:26
And you kind of have to just grab whatever tool you can.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:29
Or you have to, you know, or maybe you take a minute to be
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:33
strategic and say, Hey, we need to have, you know, specific
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:37
tools to find these zombies sooner or whatever it is.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:41
But you never have time to go back to
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:43
your village and be celebrated. You never have time to.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:47
Because they're always gonna come back and they're usually
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:51
going to come back bigger and stronger and faster.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:54
And they've adapted to the defenses that you put in place.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
32:58
So, you're never going to be done.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:05
Yes. And that's the crux of being a defender.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:07
I remember being in the military border defense.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:10
If you are if your country is has a hostile
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:13
border, you never leave the border.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
33:16
That's a very good point.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:18
You're always there. And you have the much much harder job.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:21
Because you have to figure out is that a bad guy testing
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:25
me or is this just a dude walking around?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:28
As uh as a defender, you have patterns.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
33:33
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:33
As an attacker because you have to you have
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:35
to systematize what you're doing. It has to you have to do it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:40
And you you have a goal
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
33:43
And that creates patterns.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:45
Exactly.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:45
And the attacker just needs to sit there and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:48
view your patterns and figure it out.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:50
It's kind of it's like it's like escaping.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:52
I'll make it less dramatic like this. Maybe like escaping a prison.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:56
You sit and the light goes like this and like this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
33:59
Okay, I can time it. I think that speaks to people more.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:02
And the prison guard always has the hardest job.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:05
They have to look everywhere.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
34:07
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:07
Uh and the the person escaping just needs to find oh, I found that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:10
Boom. Now I can go.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
34:12
Yes. Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:14
Um, but think about it at massive scale.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:16
That you have everybody trying to figuring you to figure you out.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:21
But something you said really uh got me is the slaying the dragons or
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:25
or getting the zombies and then every time and this is how I work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:30
Every time I fight something or I find something
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
34:37
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:38
Or I fail, I say, "Ooh, new tool. Toolbox. "
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
34:43
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:44
Now, next time I see something that looks
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:46
like that, I'll say, "Ah, right.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:47
" So, the thing is what I'm saying right
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:49
now works for me as a one person. It doesn't work at scale. Right. It
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
34:53
Right.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:54
You sit at a company and the way I've that happened to me in the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
34:58
past is I would say, Ooh, this username is really annoying.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:02
They keep coming back.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:03
And then from the other side of the room someone will say, that guy?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:08
I worked on that 5 years ago. Let me tell you.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:11
And and that's the thing that you're losing if you are
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:14
allowing people to leave or having people leave.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:18
And the funny part and, or replacing them with AI, and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:21
the funny part that's the best thing about AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:24
You can create a living knowledge base, that someone fights
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:28
something, they figure out a tactic, you have it in the knowledge base.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:33
And then when someone else like sees the exact same thing,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:37
the knowledgeist will say, this person found that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:40
This is exactly what they did.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
35:49
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
35:50
Now we can learn from that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
35:52
The challenge with that that, and this is a challenge that a
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
35:55
fraud leader for a large company told me, was that they're
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
35:59
having a really hard time with their team members, their
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:03
employees being willing to share their knowledge with AI.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:07
And I don't blame those people.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:09
Because they're worried, and maybe rightfully so. I don't know.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:13
But they're worried that if they give up that domain expertise,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:17
those years of everything that they know, right, and how well
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:21
they know the systems and how they talk to each other and and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:25
how to fix the problem and oh yeah, I remember this guy in that
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:29
department can fix that for me or you know, just all the things
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:33
they know, because they've worked there for so long.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:37
There's they're not going to be able to transfer all the
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:41
things, but they're worried that they're going to transfer
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:44
enough, that the company is going to look at it and say,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:48
"Okay, we've now basically downloaded your brain.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:51
And we don't need you anymore, because
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:54
it's now in the knowledge base.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:56
" And that's a struggle that employers are having.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
36:59
And I and then a struggle that employees are having.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:03
Like I don't want to tell my boss no, but at the
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:06
same time I don't want to dump my brain into this
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:09
thing that's going to remember it forever.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:12
And I'm not going to be as useful anymore.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:15
So I want to challenge that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:18
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:19
And that this is not a new thing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:22
Huh.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:23
How many, you've worked at many places.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:25
How many co-workers did you have that were that coworker
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:28
that was did not want to share with anybody.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:31
Because they were they were like I am the only one
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:34
who knows this thing and I'm not going to tell
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:37
A few of those. Yeah. Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:38
That is a cultural problem.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
37:40
Huh.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:41
If you if you convince your employees that they're only
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:44
as good as what knowledge they have now, and if they don't
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:48
have it anymore, or they're not special anymore, you'll
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:52
get rid of them, and is that's how they'll think.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:55
So they thought that way before and they'll think that way now.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
37:59
But now there's a new monster, a new a new
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:02
thing that will steal your knowledge. So that's the first one.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:06
So I don't think that's a new issue.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:10
That's that's true. Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:11
They wouldn't want to give it to other employees.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:14
They wanted to be the one that knew the thing, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:17
I'm the one that knows that geography or I'm the
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:20
one that knows that system or I'm the one that
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:23
knows, you know, ATOs or whatever it is.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:25
That fraud attack, you know,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:27
But that also downplays your own expertise.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:29
That you you're downplaying your you're saying the AI brain
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:33
is better than my brain and I can't compete, which yeah, it's
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:37
what it's what uh frontier companies want you to think.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:41
That AI knows everything about everything
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:44
all the time, which is just un untrue.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:46
Companies should, companies hired you for your judgment.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
38:51
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:51
Not your, sometimes for your knowledge but mostly for your judgment.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:54
And your judgment is going to continue with you.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
38:57
Your judgment is going to be the part that
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:00
tells you how to go find new attacks.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:02
Because on the other side there that the the attackers
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:05
are not saying let's just AI do everything and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:07
we're just going to sit here and make money.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:10
They're not able to do that. They need to continuously iterate.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
39:14
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:15
So you need brain on this side.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:17
It's like the silliest thing is let's fight AI with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:20
Which makes no sense. Because what does that even mean?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:24
But let's fight innovation with innovation
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:27
and innovation comes from people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:29
The thing I've noticed about so it might change in the future
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:33
but me my working with AI is I noticed one thing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:36
People think of AI the same way of AI thinking, as the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:40
same way that they think of a person thinking.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:43
So if I ran out this room and the door was closed
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:46
and I smashed into the door, I would fall.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:49
Trust me, I will open the door every single time. I will watch.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:53
AI will smash into that door every time. Or 70% of the time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
39:57
Because maybe the knowledge transferred, maybe
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:00
it didn't transfer, maybe it transferred
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:03
Maybe it didn't understand the context.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:05
Or it didn't you know it didn't understand the context
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:09
or the you know contextual like exactly how you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:12
know how things go together with each other
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:15
And you can teach you can you can explain
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:17
context in a way that AI can consume it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:20
But it's not the same way you perceive context.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:23
Context for AI is just flat data.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:28
Yeah
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:29
For you, you start saying oh I did this, and then
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:32
I did this, and then I fell on my face.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:35
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:35
Okay.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:36
I'm not going to do that and that. Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:38
And and that happens to, when you would use AI, you're like, Hold on.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:42
Why'd you do this again?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:44
We just did this yesterday and it blew up
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:46
in my face and it's like I I don't know. That's what I know. I It's
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
40:54
Yeah,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:54
It's surprise. It's funny.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:55
On one hand, we get surprised when AI does things
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
40:58
that you're like, why did you do that? That makes no sense.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:01
And then we give it this like it can do anything.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:04
Yeah, that's true.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:05
Well, and you know the other thing is that I've learned
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:08
is that you know AI never says I don't know.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:11
Or and it never says I'm not sure, right? It
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
41:16
Yes
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:17
It will just give you an answer.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:19
I mean uh Frank McKenna and I were playing around
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:22
with Google AI like a few uh months ago. I don't know.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:26
Time is a construct I feel like but.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:28
It it was yeah probably a couple months ago.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:31
And uh we were just saying like, what is pizza fraud?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:34
Or what is like, we were just making up titles of fraud tactics.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:39
And then it would make up a totally weird, almost nonsensical
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:43
definition, of this type of fraud attack that we made up.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:47
Um you know, so it's not going to say that's not a thing.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
41:50
Or I don't know, or I'm not sure that that's a thing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:01
There's, so the way I think about that is again
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:04
the way people are told how to use AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:06
You're told to open the chatbot and ask questions
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
42:13
Yes
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:14
It's not Google.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:15
So the, if you think about it, the way Google does it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:18
Google doesn't just give, usually, doesn't just
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:21
give you answers give you here links.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:24
And maybe the links will will derive something that it will tell you.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:28
Um when you ask a chat a question about pizza fraud,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:32
it only has the context that that that it probably,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:35
the probability is available to it right now,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
42:42
Oh 100%
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:43
And it's let me build this together. I never do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:46
I never ask my Claude tell me about that. I say go research that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:50
And research me, find articles specific to this field by experts.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:55
Go find all that stuff. And to me it will say I found nothing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
42:59
I don't see anything of what you're talking about.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:02
And and that's where, and I think it's just a matter
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:06
of having an understanding of how to use AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:09
And it's just in the business space and specifically in fraud and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:13
safety, It's not the same way that you would use it as a consumer.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:17
Well, consumers probably use less, but it needs to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
43:21
be a lot more thoughtful when you're using it.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:31
Mhm. That that does make sense.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:33
And yeah, we weren't we weren't giving it any context to be fair.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:37
But um that's a good The other concern I have as far
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:40
as asking Claude or any of the other tools to research
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:44
fraud topics, is that most of the fraud knowledge
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:47
within our industry lives within our brains.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:50
That's why conferences are still so important, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:54
Like that you can talk to each other one on one.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:57
Because a lot of us are, you know,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
43:59
a little cynical and skeptical.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:01
And we're not going to write it in an email and say, "Oh yeah,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:05
that's what happened to me when I worked at Facebook.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:09
Let me tell you all about it.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:11
" All all that we did, and all that we saw.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:14
Like no, you're going to say, you know, "Hey, let's
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:17
hop on a phone call," or something like that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:20
Or like let's get together.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:22
Because you don't, you know it just, or maybe you aren't
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:26
even talking about a specific company, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:29
It just, we don't feel comfortable doing that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:32
So, a lot of what's out there in the in the OSINT world,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:35
as far as fraud, you know, trends and fraud tactics
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:39
and things like that, are written by vendors.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:42
And, you know, a lot of them are blog articles that might
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:46
might turn into a sales pitch at the end, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:49
Like, here's the problem and the only
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:51
thing that can solve it is my tool.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:54
Um, and so I I worry about that too, is like if if we're
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
44:57
relying on open information about fraud, like if I
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:01
say, "Hey, research everything you know about account
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:04
takeover", you know, account takeover fraud.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:07
It's mostly going to find not expert, you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:10
know, research or anything like that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:12
It's going to find blog articles from 17 different
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:16
fraud companies that were hoping that you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:18
know someone would click on it for SEO.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:21
Like you know, so that I think
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
45:26
Yep
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:27
Our industry is different than other industries,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:29
like marketing for example, where you know there's
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:33
tons of open-source articles and stuff.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:35
Because the other reason we're not going to say it
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:38
publicly, is because we don't want the bad guys
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:41
to have any advantage that they might have.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:44
Like we talk about fraud all the time on fraudology.
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Karisse Hendrick
45:47
Yes, this is going to turn into open source information.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:50
But you and I are not talking about specifics.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:53
We're not talking about specifically how we identify
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
45:56
this type of fraud or what's being used. So, it's okay, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:00
So, but it's not going to be used for, you know, you're not
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:04
going to be able to be a company who fires their fraud manager,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:08
and then just ask Claude what what they would do.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:11
And there are companies that are considering
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:13
that or have done that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:15
And said, "We'll just ask Claude when we have a fraud question.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:19
" And I'm like, no, no, no. You're going to get
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:22
Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
46:24
Bogus blog articles that don't have any real answers.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:28
You're also going to get um decisions,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:30
or directions, that you cannot test.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:32
An example is, so the whole issue that I have with working with
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:37
Claude or with AI is that it's not hallucinations hallucinations
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:41
it's decisions that it made with whatever context that it had.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:45
And then it just made that decision and went that direction.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:49
And part of my work, and the main thing
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:52
of my work, is saying no no no. Why did you make that decision?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:56
Why'd you go there? We're going that way.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
46:59
Because, and it will confidently make a decision, and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:02
it's making a decision on the context that it has.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:05
And maybe I didn't give it the all of the context, and I,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:09
does it doesn't have the context that I have in my head.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:13
It will say, "Oh, I finished the investigation.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:16
I found this and this and this and this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:19
" And then I sit there and I say, "Okay, what about the
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:22
connection between here and here and here and here?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:26
" And of course, it will say that that is a great idea.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:29
But the way I think about it is it would not make the same
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:33
determinations that I make at least 50% of the time.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:37
I, but the the thing is is that you can't trust it to be consistent.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:41
It's probabilistic.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:43
Uh and people really like to harp on on um hallucinations.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:47
Hallucinations again are decisions that went awry.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
47:57
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
47:58
So I want you to consistently make decisions like I would, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
48:03
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:04
But it won't.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:04
Because it doesn't have all your context and also another
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:08
person's not going to make another the same decision
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:11
like you because you think differently.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:14
Um, and it's not going to ask itself
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:16
questions and say, "Oh, am I wrong? "
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
48:19
Right? That's a good point.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
48:20
So my question that I had written out was how can you trust
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
48:24
that the output of working with AI is accurate?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:28
So if you're only looking at the output from AI, you can't.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:31
You can't trust it to be accurate.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:34
What you can do is bound it with code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:36
It's saying if this happens, um so first of all I'll go back.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:40
It's it's nondeterministic.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:42
So if you have something that you want to know
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:45
if the answer is yes or no, don't ask AI. There's code for that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:49
Code does that. Scripting does that really well. And you know what?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
48:54
AI will write the code for you.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
49:00
Ah. Mmhmm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:01
Find out.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:02
Um but it's a lot of times it's also identifying
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:05
where are the limits for AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:07
So an example would be we are working a lot with spreadsheets, right?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:11
It's the space works a lot with spreadsheets.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
49:16
Yes.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:17
If you put a spreadsheets in, spread a lot of spreadsheets with a lot
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:21
of information into AI, it's very possible that it will make some
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:25
decisions there that you can't see that will corrupt your data.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:30
So don't have the AI read the spreadsheet.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:32
Have code parse it into documentation that then is easier
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:36
for the AI to parse and then make decisions.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:39
Um, and within the, generally within the the Claude codes
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:43
harness, I have a lot of things that if Claude tries to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:47
do that, uh, the the code says no, you can't do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:50
I'm not even call my harness doesn't even call the the LLM at all.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:55
Or it says you can only do this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
49:57
Or if the AI tries to do something, it blocks it. It says nope.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:01
If it tries to delete something, it just blocks it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:04
Cuz you cannot do this action.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:06
So I think this is why I say I think about it like a thread actor.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:11
Because I it needs to have parameters of what it can it
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:14
can't do and they need to consistently be enforced
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
50:26
Right
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:26
And not enforced with skills or you telling it not to do it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:30
This is the thing.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:31
People, oh but I made a never hallucinate or always do that.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:35
Yeah, I learned pretty quickly that doesn't work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:38
Like you, it will make a a determination to, oh, I needed to
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:42
do this faster, so I decided to not read your whole skill.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
50:47
Mmmm
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:48
Okay, that's where code comes in.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:50
Okay, if I really need you to not to do something specific,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:54
you can write code to say just do that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
50:57
Hmmm
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
50:58
And this is where it gets more a lot more
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
51:00
complex than talking to a chatbot. But this is where chat bots fail.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
51:05
You cannot have run a business with a chatbot.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:09
Huh, that's a very good quote.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:10
I think that should be like your professional coat.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:14
You you can quote you cannot, you know, maybe it's on your
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:18
tombstone or it's, you know, your your whatever your quote,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:22
but you cannot run a business with a chatbot.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
51:25
No, you can't.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:26
I think that's very good.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:27
Oh, you know, one other thing I wanted to just talk about really
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:31
fast was, um hopefully we can talk about this fast.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:35
Um AI governance.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:36
So, that was in the AI boot camp that
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:38
we had for Merchant Fraud Alliance.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:41
That was something that came up quite a bit.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:44
Was okay, now that we're using AI and everybody's
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:47
using it in a little bit of a different way, and
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:50
you know different flavor and and all of that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:53
Like you know, it's now what do we do for AI governance using AI?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
51:58
Um and what advice would you have for them?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:03
I think it's the same advice.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:04
Is have guard rails and guidelines that are enforced
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:08
in code about what you can and you can't do.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:11
Um, and I think this is what happens, right?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:14
You bring in AI, you tell people use all
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:16
your credit, they build a lot of stuff.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:19
And this is an a software engineer's worst nightmare, right?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:23
Because nobody looked at the code, whether it's good or bad.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:27
Nobody looked at the code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:29
Nobody saw how this engages with production.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:32
Even with policy, Uh how does it how does it
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:35
when it meets real life, how does it work?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:37
You have to have the same thing that you have for people.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:41
You can only do this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:43
And you have to decisions can only be
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:45
applied within specific parameters.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:47
And that ends up being again uh the guardrails have to be in code.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:52
You say to the to the to the LLM, you
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:54
cannot do that or you must do this.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
52:57
Um, a lot of times, like I said, people try to do
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:00
that with skills, try to do that with pros. And that doesn't work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:04
And that's a general misunderstanding of how LLM's work.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:08
Because they're just going to try to get it's just I'm trying
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:12
to get from point A to point B the fastest I can.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:15
Uh but if I say I build a wall, and you you you I just and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:19
not allowing you to pass this wall, go the other way.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
53:32
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:32
Um or, and you and you, the thing is governance takes a really long
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:36
time because you have to figure out, because this is not a person.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:40
This is some this is an adversary that's
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:43
going to try to get around you. So you have to say I built the wall.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:47
Oh crap. It went under the wall. All right.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:50
So now I got to go deeper.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:52
Or now do I have to go 10 steps back and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:55
figure out like what happened here?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
53:57
Um so starting AI governance after having like full infra
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:01
that's AI dependent is going to be very very hard.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:04
It's possible it's just a lot of work.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:07
Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:07
I was wondering as they were sharing that frustration
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:11
and that concern of like, uh now we have to figure
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:14
out the rules, around the guidelines, right, around
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:18
what we're doing and how we're using it.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:20
I was thinking, is that backwards?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:23
But we do everything backwards. We do security and fraud backwards.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:27
Everything is like, because you get the shinies,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:29
you see something cool, you build, I'm guilty.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:32
And then you're like crap, I have three AI agents
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
54:35
that are writing to the same documents.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:38
Yes.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:39
Or I have three analysts using it in
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:41
three completely different ways.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:43
And we need to have some guidelines around like how, you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:47
know the merchant that had used AI the most within this
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:50
boot camp was sharing like they've had to have a lot
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:54
of conversations around how do you define this.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:57
How do you identify this.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
54:59
Because she realized oh I have I don't
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:01
know 27 agents, or whatever it is.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:04
And and they all find account takeover differently, like with
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:08
different SQL queries, or with different, you know things.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:11
How do we tell, you know, Claude how to identify ATO
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:15
when 27 people are finding it in 27 different ways?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:22
And how do you explain it to legal?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:23
The this one file the right ATO's and this is where someone
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:25
said to me, I told you earlier, someone said to me
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:28
Yeah
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:29
Well it doesn't stand up in court.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:31
But yeah, if I can find if I do discovery and I find that you
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:35
have 27 ways to find ATO, tell me which one is right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
55:39
Yeah that's true
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:42
Especially if it the biggest problem is if you treat, If
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:45
you allow AI to be a black box and in governance and
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:49
safety and security and fraud, you have a problem.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:52
You can't have black boxes. You don't know what's going on.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:56
Especially if you're going to legal and saying,
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
55:59
"I know that this is a bad actor. Sends the send the FBI there. "
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:05
Mhm.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:06
Show me proof.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:07
You can do that, but only if you put the appropriate
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:10
guard rails and processes inside.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:12
But I think this is a problem that everybody is going to have.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:16
Most people are going to have.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:18
Like it was really cool and then it got scaled and then
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:22
you're like, "Oh no, now we have to build governance. "
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:29
Yeah.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
56:30
And that's how it is.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:32
Yeah, that's true. Well, this has been a really fun conversation.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:36
We're just at the top of the hour.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:38
I had a feeling that we would have good banter on this topic.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:42
Um, I've definitely learned a lot about, you know, how to think
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:46
about AI in a different way uh after talking to you today.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:50
And I think a lot of other people have too.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:52
I'll definitely include a link to your uh LinkedIn
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:56
as well as to your consulting page.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
56:58
I think there's a few companies I thought of that I wrote
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:02
down as we were talking that I was thinking, you know,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:05
it would be really good and helpful for them and I think
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:09
they'd be really open to having us off come into the
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:12
their company and just do like a workshop, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:15
Like a thinking out loud workshop of like, hey, this is how we're
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:19
thinking about using AI or this is how we're using it now.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:23
Tell us where, you know, what we're doing wrong or how
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:27
we need to think about it or how we can put some code
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:30
around it to make sure that it's, you know, going
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:33
to do the right thing and have the right output.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:36
Um, I think that would be a really good, I think
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:39
a lot of companies would benefit from that.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:42
Right now they're they're not really, you know, they don't really
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:46
have anyone to go to to be like, hey, am I doing this right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:50
Or am I, you know, what am I not thinking of?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:53
But because you've had to do it already for, you
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:56
know, two very large companies, you've been
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
57:59
through those processes that they haven't.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:02
So, I think that could be a really good service to offer.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:06
Yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:07
Um, I'm just, you know, adding to your your consulting offerings,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:11
but I think that that would be really beneficial. Um, yeah.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:15
Is there anything else that you want to mention
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:18
before we uh call it an episode?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:23
Um, always go look for the root cause of whatever failed.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:26
Don't let don't say fix it and move on. Say why did this happen?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:31
I think that is the core of how I work with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:34
I always say, "Oh, you failed here. I don't want to hear fix it.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:38
Tell me why. Do a root cause analysis. Tell me why. How can we learn?
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:43
" And I think that's the way people
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:45
should look at at working with AI.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
58:47
Anytime every time it fails at the opportunity to learn
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:54
That's true in life too, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:56
Every time we fail, it's an opportunity to learn.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
58:59
But that's good to transfer it to AI as well.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:02
Uh because they're not, it's as you said
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:05
it's not necessarily learning, right?
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:07
Like it's not necessarily going to say, "Oh,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:10
I walked into that door yesterday. I'm not going to do it again.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:14
" It's going to follow the path it's
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:17
been given every single time.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:19
Um and so if if we are learning from it and then
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:22
helping it not make that mistake tomorrow,
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:25
that's only going to make things better.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
59:29
Yeah. It doesn't feel the pain that you feel is not.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:33
That's true.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:33
And it's not attached to a paycheck or
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:36
all the things that a paycheck means. It doesn't have a family.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:40
It doesn't have, you know, the meaning.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:42
I mean, it it's getting paid by tokens
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:45
whether they're right or wrong. So, it doesn't really matter.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:49
That's a good point.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:50
Well, thank you again so much for such a great conversation.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:54
I um hopefully it won't be three years
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
59:56
again for the next time you come on.
A smiling man with gray hair and green glasses wears a blue polo shirt.
Assaf Kipnis
59:59
All right. Thanks so much.
A smiling woman with short brown hair and glasses, wearing a black and white striped blazer.
Karisse Hendrick
60:00
I'll talk to you soon.