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The Saturday Fraud Strategist

不正検知における基盤モデルを解説:ChatGPTを支える技術を不正対策に応用

13 min

今年はどのカンファレンスでも、不正対策における基盤モデルの活用が議題に上がり、同じ問いを何度も耳にします。これは本物なのか、それとも新たなバズワードにすぎないのか。Money20/20 Vegasに到着した私は、日々こうしたモデルを使って開発に取り組んでいる人に話を聞きたいと思いました。

ペドロ・サンゾヴォは、本人確認や不正対策のプロダクトに携わり、キャリアを通じて不正対策の分野で活躍してきました。Palantirでキャリアをスタートさせ、ブラジルで加盟店向けの不正対策企業を設立。その会社をSignifydに売却した後、同社で機械学習モデルを活用したプロダクト開発を率いました。6か月前にPlaidに入社しました。

今回は、短く実践的な内容にまとめました。基盤モデルとは何か、そして私たちの多くが現在使っているモデルとどう違うのでしょうか。どのような場面でXGBoostを上回り、どこで同じ壁にぶつかるのでしょうか。また、チームでルールを作成する際に、埋め込み表現をどう活用すればよいのでしょうか。ペドロはこうした問いに的確に答えてくれました。ぜひ聞いていただきたい話もいくつかあります。

このエピソードで取り上げる内容:

  • 基盤モデルとは何か、そしてTransformerモデルは、不正対策チームが長年使用してきたルールの連鎖やXGBoostモデルとどう異なるのか
  • 従来のモデルが手作業で設計された特徴量と正確な教師ラベルに依存する理由と、それが中小企業にとって難しい理由
  • 金融データの基盤モデルが取引を一連のイベントとして捉え、次に何が起こるかを予測する仕組み
  • Pedroが目にしている最大34%の適合率向上とは何を意味するのか、そして、なぜ依然としてデータ品質が結果を左右するのか
  • カード取引では300ミリ秒といったレイテンシの制約が、どのモデルをどこで使うべきかを左右する理由
  • 基盤モデルの説明可能性はXGBoostと比べてどうなのか、また、与信と不正検知で求められる説明可能性が異なるのはなぜか
  • 埋め込みをルールに変換するのが難しい理由と、AIエージェントがどのように役立つ可能性があるか

次のような方に、このエピソードはおすすめです:

  • 不正対策のデータサイエンスチームを率いている、またはそのチームと協働しており、基盤モデルの活用を検討すべきか判断しようとしている方
  • 少人数の不正対策チームを率いており、ラベル付けや特徴量エンジニアリングに課題を抱えている
  • 基盤モデルとXGBoostの違いについて、わかりやすい説明を求めている
  • 予測精度の向上とレイテンシーや説明可能性とのトレードオフを検討する必要がある
  • 埋め込みとAIエージェントを連携させて不正検知ルールを作成する仕組みに関心がある
エピソードの概要と重要なポイント

ルールベースからXGBoost、そしてTransformerへ

Pedroは、その歴史をわかりやすく説明しています。10〜15年にわたり、不正防止は複数のルールを連鎖させる仕組みで運用されていました。その後、XGBoostの登場によって、はるかに多くのデータを活用し、ごく短い遅延で細かな判断を下せるようになりました。この手法は、約10年にわたって最先端の座を占めていました。私が、アルゴリズムの観点ではこうしたモデルもルールによく似ていると指摘すると、Pedroも同じような欠点があると認めました。構築には多大な手間がかかり、特徴量をコードで実装するにはデータサイエンティストが必要で、教師データには明確なラベルが求められます。ラベル付けを間違えれば、質の悪い入力からは質の悪い結果しか得られません。これは特に小規模な企業にとって大きな負担です。つまり、従来のモデルは機能するものの、人に負担を強いるのです。

基盤モデルで何が変わるのか

私たちが日常的に使うLLMを支えているのはTransformerモデルです。情報を一連のシーケンスとして扱い、次に来る可能性が最も高い出力を予測する仕組みです。Pedroが問いかけているのは、金融データにも同じ手法を適用したらどうなるか、ということです。Plaidなどの企業は現在、金融情報を一連のイベントとして符号化し、人手で設計した特徴量に代わる埋め込み表現を作成しています。これにより、チームは特徴量エンジニアリングへの依存を減らせるほか、ラベルに求められる厳密さも下がります。ただし、ラベル自体は依然としてある程度必要です。Pedroによると、適合率は最大34%向上しており、これは私が業界で目にしている状況とも一致しています。しかし、従来と同じ問題は残っています。データの質が低ければ結果の質も低くなり、正確なタイムスタンプを付けるという一見単純なことさえ、実行するのは容易ではありません。こうしたモデルはより多くのデータを取り込めますが、クリーンなデータが無尽蔵にあるわけではありません。そのため、チームはこれまで保存していなかったデータの収集を始める必要があるかもしれません。

レイテンシ、精度、説明可能性が、各モデルの適用先を決める

これらすべてが機械学習や新しい意思決定モデルとどう関わるのかを尋ねた。Pedroが注目するのは、目標とする指標と制約だ。目標となるのは通常、適合率と再現率であり、最大の制約はレイテンシーだ。カード取引の判定に使える時間は約300ミリ秒以下だが、顧客登録時の審査やプロモーションの不正利用の検知では、時間的な余裕がはるかに大きい。優れたデータサイエンスとデータエンジニアリングのチームは、選択肢を検討し、何を最適化するのかを把握したうえで、データに判断を委ねるべきだというのが彼の考えだ。同じ制約のもとで既存モデルの適合率を上回るモデルがあれば、そちらを採用する。彼がもう一つ重視するのは説明可能性だ。XGBoostでもこの課題は完全には解決されていないが、それでもTransformerよりははるかに扱いやすい。与信判断では規制上、説明可能性が求められるが、不正検知では求められない。最適な答えはユースケースによって異なる。

AIエージェントで埋め込みからルールへ

私は、埋め込みは特徴量エンジニアリングの近道になるものの、ルールには使えないと付け加えた。するとペドロは、すぐにエージェントを思い浮かべた。彼のチームでは、埋め込みをエージェントに与え、その一部をルールに変換したり、見落としを見つけたりできないか試している。それでも、その成果が妥当かどうかは人間が判断する必要がある。物事は単純になるどころか複雑になっているが、ペドロは、ますます面白くなっていると言う。選択肢も、試して遊べる道具も増えているという点には、私も同感だ。ただし、どの選択肢にもトレードオフがあり、チームは採用を決める前にそれを理解しておかなければならない。

最後のまとめ

不正対策における基盤モデルは、新たに加わった最新のツールです。良質なデータに取って代わるものではありません。Pedroの助言は、何を最適化したいのかを明確にし、制約を踏まえ、結果に基づいて判断することです。従来のモデルと基盤モデルのどちらを選ぶか迷っているなら、まずは土台となるデータの品質を確認しましょう。こうしたモデルが業務をどう変えるのか、私たちはまだ理解し始めたばかりです。優れたチームは、これらを完成された答えではなく、検証する価値のある有望な選択肢として捉えるでしょう。

リソースとリンク

私が大好きな、そして皆さんにもそうであってほしいこのテーマについて、もっと語り合いたいですか? ニュースレター「サタデー・フロード・ストラテジスト」にぜひご登録ください。

つながりましょう:Pedro Sanzovo | LinkedIn
Plaidのゼネラルマネージャー兼不正対策責任者

こちらからつながる:Chen Zamir | LinkedIn
The Saturday Fraud Strategistのホスト
フィンテック企業による、より賢い不正対策の構築を支援
『不正対策担当者のためのAI実践ガイド』共著者

Episode transcript
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:06
Hi everybody and welcome to another live special episode from
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:09
Money 20/20 Vegas with me today Pedro Sanzovo from Plaid.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:13
Welcome to the show. Lovely to meet you.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:16
So happy to be here.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:17
Excited to be here Money 20/20 and talk to you about fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:21
Yeah. So we just started the conference has just started.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:24
I want to speak to you shortly about found foundation models in fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:27
Tell us a bit about who you are, what you've been up to so far.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:31
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so I joined Plaid only six months ago.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:35
Okay.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:35
But I've been in the fraud space for, well my whole career really.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:39
It was started Palantir.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:41
That was my first foray into defensive technologies, let's call it.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:45
Moved back to Brazil and started my own company in the transactional
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:50
fraud space focused on the on merchants and servicing merchants,
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:54
helping prevent chargeback, uh, all that jazz.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:57
We we ran that company for about five or six years.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:00
Uh and had a successful exit to Signified.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:03
Back in 2018 at Signified, I was leading a lot of the the uh the
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:07
product work most focused on machine learning, modeling, making
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:12
sure that we're creating top-of-the-line models there.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:15
And I had the opportunity early this year to come over to Plaid
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:19
uh and help us continue building this incredible work that
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:23
Plaid has been doing over the last few years on building
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:27
really good identity and fraud products for the market.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:33
Pedro,
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:34
Yeah,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:34
Let's talk about foundation foundation models.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:37
Uh like to yeah, yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:39
Yeah that's that's the hippest term now in uh in fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:42
Let's start with the basics like what's foundation models?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:46
Uh how are they different from regular legacy machine learning models?
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:53
Cool. Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:54
The the way that I like to think about it like think
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:57
about the history of fraud prevention, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:00
Uh 10 maybe 15 years everyone was basically creating
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:03
those set of chained rules, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:06
Uh waterfalls that were basically making decisions.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:09
Um at some point the the industry realized that there
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:13
were a type of algorithmic approach namely XG boost.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:16
So the uh extreme gradient boosted uh random forests that allowed
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:20
for a lot more data to be encompassed into micro decisions that
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:25
ultimately resulted in better prediction with super low latency
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:29
and those became effectively the state-of-the-art in the
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:33
front end industry for the last 10 years at the very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
02:48
They also look very much similar to rules,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
02:50
right, from an algorithmic perspective.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:52
Yes. Right. And they have the same downsides of rules.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:55
What are the downsides of rules?
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:57
They on one hand they're very they're very labor some to build.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:00
There's a lot of feature engineering
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:03
that needs to go into it, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:05
Adapting the index, the features, yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:07
It's not self-learning.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:08
You need data scientists to actually be coding up the features,
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:11
understanding what the traffic is telling you.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:13
And then like whenever there's a change in behavior, you need to
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:16
put your data scientists, your fraud investigators should actually
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:19
understand like okay what the hell is happening here?
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:22
How can we codify that into a feature? Let's build that feature.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:25
Let's throw into the model. Let's train it offline.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:27
Let's move it online and then try to figure out
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:29
if it actually providing lift and precision.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:32
Um and it's also very very dependent on label
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:34
sets and very clear label sets, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:36
Supervised learning.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:37
Supervised learning. Exactly. Supervised learning.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:39
So you need to point the model to this is
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:41
the thing that I want you to predict.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:43
This is the thing that I don't want you to predict, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:46
And you need to keep those models
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:48
And that's very labor intense, right? That's not easy.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:51
Labor intensive.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:52
It's very complicated, especially for smaller companies, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:56
Uh and then you get into this game that if you're
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:59
labeling things incorrectly, you're screwed.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:02
Trash in, trash out, right? It's a massive problem.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:05
What happened over the last let's say five years or so
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:09
is that um super super super smart people figured out
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:13
that there was different way of codifying information
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:16
that does not resemble those decision trees, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:19
And those are the transformer-based models.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:22
Fundamentally those transformer-based models is what is
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:26
backing the LLMs right that we all use uh to an extreme
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:30
now like ChatGPT, Anthropic, Claude all that jazz.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:33
And all it does to a certain extent is that it codifies
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:37
information as a sequence of inputs, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:40
And LLM's those are words or those are letters and then tries to
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:44
predict what is the next most likely output of that sequence.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:48
Again for LLMs that's a word that's a letter
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:03
What what If we could do the same for fraud, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:05
What if we could do the same for financial data?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:09
Mhm.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:09
I I think that's the question that everyone started asking.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:12
It's like, okay, instead of codifying letters and words,
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:16
what if we codified financial information, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:19
So that is what well we at Plaid started doing and a
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:22
lot of players in the industry are doing as well.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:25
We're codifying financial information.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:28
And we're codifying our data as the sequence of events.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:31
And then we're creating those things called embeddings, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:35
Which ultimately are the inputs for the model
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:38
to try to figure out, okay, what is the next
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:41
Instead of these handcrafted features that you described before for
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:44
post, we have now embeddings that are created by the foundation model.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:48
And the beauty of this approach is that you rely less on
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:51
humanmade feature engineering and also label science.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:54
You still need to some labels.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:56
You need to feed into it, but it doesn't need to be the same
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:59
degree of precision that actually boost models needed.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:02
What's the downside?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:03
There there are a few downsides and we're still
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:06
kind of learning how to use them, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:08
Uh but actually before we go to downsides, they're good.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:12
They're predictive, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:13
At least I think we we're seeing right
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:15
now an uplift in precision up to 34%.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:18
That's very much in line with what we're seeing.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:21
That's in line with what we're seeing in industry.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:23
Uh but again, I think what's important to keep in mind is
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:27
that the same problem that existed in actually boost trash
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:30
in trash out still exists to a certain extent.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:33
Interesting. How does trash look like for a foundation model?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:37
It's poor data, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:38
If your data is not clean, if the data quality is poor and on its
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:41
essence, the model is not going to be able to codify those sequences.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:45
So a simple example is one of the most interesting elements
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:49
of those foundational transform transformer based models
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:52
is uh the time based events and sequencing, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:57
If you don't have a really good way to key those times and like
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:00
that's something that if anyone has ever worked with data, you
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:04
know that making sure that your time columns or time data assets
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:08
are precise and they're not getting funky with like time
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:11
zones and whatnot, it's easier said than done, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:14
And that problem still exists in transform models.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:17
So you need to make sure that that underlying data asset is
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:20
trustworthy, is rich, and then the algorithm is going to do its work, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:25
And it's going to do its magic.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:27
Uh but it doesn't solve for the foundational issue.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:30
And it sounds simple, but I think where where I've seen
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:33
organization kind of like get it wrong or get it messy
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:36
is exactly where you know like status has arrived.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:39
And you need to kind of like keep the time stamp of the status
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:42
or velocity attributes and like when did I actually see these
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:46
links or connections and when you don't have that.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:49
Totally.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:49
And now it's interesting because those models they're able to absorb
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:53
a lot more data than actually boost trust or to an extent, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:57
It's like the whole kind of dynamic that we're seeing even on
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:00
the LLM is that the more compute that we put into it, the more
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:04
data that we put into it, the more precision it shows.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:07
In theory, that should be the same that we
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:09
should see in the financial ecosystem.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:11
The more data that we put into it, the more compute that we put
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:15
into it, the better precision we're going to see, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:18
But the problem is that data we don't have a 8:25 limitless
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:21
amount of good quality cleaned data, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:23
What we're learning is okay like we have our essential
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:26
set of that asset that is going to the model.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:29
Now let's bring this new that asset that we have
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:32
never been able to incompass an extra boost. Oh damn, okay.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:35
That that asset is not ready for it it needs to be cleaned it needs
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:39
to be treated it should like we need to start collecting it.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:42
Data that we weren't collecting before that
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:44
we weren't storing the right Hey. Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:46
Um, so there's there's again a lot of
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:48
foundational work to make that work.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:51
Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:52
And I think that, you know, to an extent it still is
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:55
the same problem that we had with again legacy. It's funny.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:59
It's funny to kind speak about like that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:02
with legacy machine learning models.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:04
Also there you cannot really train on fresh data without
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:08
auditing the data and making sure that it's it's
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:11
clean and the labels are clean and so on. Last question.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:15
Uh super new, like what two months maybe, but we now have Jev.
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Pedro Sanzovo
09:20
Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:21
Uh so you know we're kind of like we we are just getting our heads
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:24
wrapped around this concept of foundation models and now we have the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:28
system one or decision models or whatever you want to call it, uh that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:32
you know work differently than uh than you know LLM and foundation models.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:37
Uh they are much more fit uh for a purpose in terms of
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:40
um you know like real time operations and so on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:43
How do you see the play between you know we have like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:46
machine learning models, we have foundation models
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:49
and we have now decision decision models.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:51
How do you see like the the scope here?
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Pedro Sanzovo
09:54
I mean it's you got to think about what are your target variables
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Pedro Sanzovo
09:58
in any exercise and what are your constraints?
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:00
For the world of fraud prevention, Generally what I'm
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:04
thinking about when I think about target variables,
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:07
I'm thinking about precision recall right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:10
I'm thinking about true positives, false positives,
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:13
the quadrants that we all know.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:15
What but I got to think about the constraints.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:18
And a big constraint is latency
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:20
Yes
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:21
Right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:21
So depending on the use case that you're facing latency
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:25
constraints are going to be wildly different.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:27
If you're trying to make like transaction transaction decisions for
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:31
credit cards for instance or debit cards, your latency budget is
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:35
very very minimum generally under 300 milliseconds or or or even lower.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:40
If you're doing onboarding or promo abuse, then
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:42
your latency constraints are way larger.
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
10:45
So then you have a lot more room to play with. Okay.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:48
Optimizing the target variables.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:50
And so the way that I think about it is if you have a
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:53
good data science team and a good data engineering team,
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:56
you're bound where where it's almost mandatory that
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
10:59
you need to explore the options out there. You need to do research.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:04
Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:05
And then you need to have clarity on what are
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
11:07
you actually trying to optimize for, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:10
Uh and honestly, I think the beauty of our of our industry
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:13
is that the data tells the truth ultimately.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:16
If you have a model that beats your precision with the same kind of
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
11:20
constraints and respecting the constraints in place, it wins.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:24
Yeah.
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
11:25
Right. Then there's another, if I may,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:27
Go for it.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:28
There's another thing that gets me concerned about this
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:31
new age of modeling which is explainability, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:35
So like one of the things and XG boost never really solved that but
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:40
It's much easier with XG Boost.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:41
It's much easier, right? It's much easier.
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
11:43
You can get a sense like humans can interact with
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:46
the outputs of those models in decent ways.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:48
It's much harder to do with trans with foundational
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:51
models for transformer based models and with Jev
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:54
I imagine that the constraint is the same. The problem is the same.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:57
So, how can we walk that line?
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
11:59
And again, it depends a lot of the use case, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:02
If we're talking about risk, credit has a
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
12:04
regulatory mandate for explainability.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:07
Yes.
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
12:08
That is very different from fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:09
Yes.
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
12:10
Right. So,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:11
And and I would add maybe to to close uh things off, I would
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:14
add that, you know, these embeddings, you know, they they
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:18
short like it's a shortcut to feature engineering.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:21
I don't need the talent. I don't need the effort.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:24
I don't need to handcraft it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:26
But I can also not really use them in rules.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:29
Yep. Exactly. So, so yeah,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:32
So then you need to kind of like go through that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:34
effort in order to to like write rules.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:36
Totally. And then it gets into I think you're totally right.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:39
And that's well immediately I start thinking about agents, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:42
It's like okay, you know who can kind of understand some of those
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:46
embeddings but in the humans potentially agent, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:49
So like things that we're experimenting with is
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:52
okay can we feed agents embeddings and can they
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:54
transform some of those into rules, right? Can they find the gaps?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:58
Uh and obviously you you still need a human in the loop to
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:01
try to figure out okay like is this actually good work.
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:04
But I think that's the direction that we need to explore
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:08
Yeah I mean folks uh things are not getting simpler
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:11
No
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:12
That's the bad news
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:13
They are getting more fun I think
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:14
The good news it's more fun, more options, more toys to play with.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:17
Pedro enjoyed it. We should uh do a proper sit down
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:20
Lets do it
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:21
In the podcast and enjoy the conference, man.
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:24
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:26
See you next Saturday.