47 min
Le cedí mi micrófono a Hailey Windham, presentadora de Fraud Forward. Por una vez, soy yo quien responde las preguntas en lugar de hacerlas.
Hailey comienza preguntándome cómo describiría mi misión actual, ya que «constructor» no alcanza a abarcar todo lo que hago ahora entre asesorar, formar y escribir. Esa pregunta plantea el verdadero eje de esta conversación: qué significa realmente la estrategia contra el fraude, por qué creo que el análisis predictivo del fraude es, en gran medida, una invención y cómo el verdadero trabajo de un estratega antifraude consiste en asegurarse de que un equipo pueda reaccionar bien cuando algo falla, no en fingir que alguien puede ir siempre un paso por delante de los defraudadores.
Hailey y yo hablamos de cuándo un escepticismo saludable se convierte en un punto ciego, de por qué los modelos fundacionales están demostrando ser más valiosos para enriquecer datos que para puntuar transacciones, y termino ofreciendo consejos prácticos a quienes se preguntan en silencio si también podrían trabajar por cuenta propia.
Notas del episodio y conclusiones clave
La estrategia contra el fraude es una mentalidad, no un cargo
Hailey me preguntó directamente qué significa realmente ser estratega de fraude, y creo que la respuesta sincera es que se trata menos de una función y más de una mentalidad. La estrategia consiste en pensar en objetivos y efectos a largo plazo, en lugar de centrarse en tácticas. Si tu día a día se reduce a apagar incendios, por definición estás actuando de forma táctica, y solo si tomas distancia podrás adoptar un enfoque verdaderamente estratégico.
El análisis predictivo del fraude es, en gran medida, una invención
En este episodio dije algo que llevo tiempo pensando, pero que rara vez expreso con tanta franqueza. El análisis predictivo del fraude es, en gran medida, una invención. Los equipos que creen que lograrán adelantarse a los defraudadores persiguen algo que nunca sucede. Ya es una suerte ir dos pasos por detrás en lugar de diez. Si no podemos anticiparnos, el verdadero valor de una estrategia contra el fraude reside en desarrollar la capacidad de reaccionar de forma eficaz y eficiente cuando se produzca, no en fingir que lo vimos venir.
Dos historias sobre el escepticismo y cuándo se convierte en un punto ciego
Le conté a Hailey cuál había sido el error más costoso de mi carrera: negarme a creer que un modelo simplificado realmente había superado al nuestro, que era propietario, lo que retrasó un año entero su lanzamiento. También le conté que me adentré en la investigación de Sardine sobre modelos fundacionales convencido de antemano de que era puro bombo, y que tuve que recordarme conscientemente que no debía cometer dos veces el mismo error. Un escepticismo sano es una verdadera salvaguarda para quienes combaten el fraude. La línea que lo separa de la obstinación es realmente difusa, y no creo que exista una regla clara para determinar dónde está.
Los modelos fundacionales aportan valor en un ámbito distinto del que la mayoría espera
Algo que no llegué a comprender del todo hasta hace un par de meses es que los modelos fundacionales no están demostrando su valor al puntuar transacciones, sino al enriquecer los datos y crear nuevas variables. Esto supone un verdadero cambio respecto a cómo los concebía hasta hace poco, y es precisamente el tipo de supuesto que quiero que los equipos de prevención del fraude sigan poniendo a prueba en lugar de darlo por sentado.
Por qué tantos equipos antifraude desarrollan soluciones que deberían simplemente comprar
Le dije a Hailey que veo esto constantemente, sobre todo en el sector fintech: equipos que reconstruyen desde cero un motor de reglas, un sistema de identificación de dispositivos o un proceso KYC porque su filosofía interna es: «Somos tecnólogos; construimos cosas». La mayoría de las veces, esa decisión supone un desvío de dos años disfrazado de proyecto de un mes. Decidir entre desarrollar o comprar tecnología antifraude es una cuestión real, y optar por desarrollarla por defecto casi nunca beneficia al equipo.
Proteger la atención y el trabajo profundo es más difícil de lo que parece
Siempre se me ha dado mal delegar, sobre todo cuando se trata de crear algo, y se lo dije directamente a Hailey. Cuando me incorporé a Sardine y me encontré gestionando dos motores de contenido completos, además de escribir un libro, me di cuenta de que había vuelto a alternar constantemente entre tareas como cuando era fundador, y ese cambio continuo de narrativa va mermando poco a poco tu capacidad de pensar con claridad, especialmente cuando también te apoyas en la IA y, sin darte cuenta, le das demasiada libertad.
Consejos sinceros para quienes estén pensando en trabajar por cuenta propia
Hailey me preguntó qué le diría a alguien que estuviera considerando discretamente dedicarse a la consultoría o al asesoramiento, y le conté las dos cosas que de verdad creo que importan. Primero, hay que entender que trabajar por cuenta propia significa que, ante todo, pasas a ser dueño de un negocio y tienes que encargarte de las ventas, el marketing y la administración antes siquiera de poder dedicarte al trabajo que realmente se te da bien. Segundo, hay que generar visibilidad de forma intencionada, ya sea contactando con tu red sin pedir nada a cambio, simplemente para saber cómo puedes ayudar, o publicando contenido de manera constante, para que, cuando alguien necesite lo que haces, tu nombre sea el primero que le venga a la mente.
Conclusión final
Si hay una idea de esta conversación que espero que perdure, es que la estrategia contra el fraude nunca ha consistido en adelantarse al futuro. Se trata de formar un equipo y desarrollar una mentalidad capaces de reaccionar con rapidez y claridad, en lugar de dejarse llevar por el pánico, ante cualquier situación que realmente se presente. Esto se aplica tanto si diriges un programa de prevención del fraude como si evalúas una nueva tecnología o decides si estás listo para desarrollar una carrera con tu propio nombre en vez de hacerlo dentro del equipo de otra persona. Nada de esto se consigue prediciendo el futuro, sino estando preparado.
Recursos y enlaces
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Conecta con Hailey Windham | LinkedIn
Presentadora de Fraud Forward
Responsable de banca comunitaria en Sardine
Conecta con Chen Zamir | LinkedIn
Presentador de The Saturday Fraud Strategist
Ayuda a las fintech a desarrollar defensas contra el fraude más inteligentes
Coautor de «The Fraud Fighter’s AI Playbook»
Episode transcript
Chen Zamir
00:00
They imagine that they would be able to be one step ahead of fraudsters. Never. It's not ever going to happen ever. You're lucky if you're two steps behind fraudsters and not 10. Like there's so much shit out there that you can buy and plug in. Like why? Like why build it for the hundredth time yourself? All right. Hailey, you're going to get an exclusive. This is a story I never...
Hailey Windham
00:31
What's up everybody? Welcome to the Saturday Fraud Strategist. I'm not your usual host, but today we're going to do something a little fun. So, I'm Hailey Windham and Chen thank you so much for uh joining me, having me on your podcast.
Chen Zamir
00:45
No, thank you. I mean, uh it's it's a I'm I'm super nervous. You know, I've been on podcast on the interview seat uh before, but uh you know, I've I've uh grown accustomed to being the interviewer, you know, in my very long and prosperous uh podcast career for the last 4 months. Uh so I'm now very nervous of uh how how it is uh to be back on the hotseat. Uh thank you Hailey for joining us. That's awesome.
Hailey Windham
01:12
I I think this is great. Um so we're going to give a little bit of backstory. Obviously, people want to know why the heck is Hailey here and why is she the one asking the questions. So, uh we'll answer I'll answer that in short and then Chen I'll kick it back over to you. So, I'm here. We're going to be doing some reverse uh podcast interviews both Chen and I. So, I'm joining him today on the Saturday Fraud Strategist and then he will be joining me on Fraud Forward where he will be interviewing me. So, we thought what a perfect way to kind of tee up something else that we've been working on and that we're really excited to talk about. Um, so Chen, I'll let you take it from here. Where will we be soon?
Chen Zamir
01:50
Yeah, I mean, it's not super crazy, but both Hailey and I are heading to uh Vegas. Uh, we'll be in Vegas uh next month. So, a couple of weeks after this episode is published, there's Money 2020. Uh, Vegas. Both Hailey and I would be there uh together with the Sardine crew, the Sardine media crew uh and uh a special surprise, we're going uh both to record there a few mini podcast episodes uh interviewing uh folks on the floor. Uh so if you're there and if you would like to participate, I think Hailey uh I mean I have two three slots open still. I think I I think you're the same. So, shoot us a DM or an email and uh yeah, I mean uh would love to see you there. Uh and by the way, would love to see you there also if you're not on the podcast. That's also a possibility.
Hailey Windham
02:39
Yes, absolutely. We're probably going to have a happy hour or two. We'll be around uh walking the floors. We'll be hosting podcast again live on the floor uh the show floor, which will be really awesome. But you'll also find us um you'll definitely find me somewhere probably lost in the Venetian. I always uh seem to get lost. It's very large there. So, if you see a blonde chick just kind of looking around like walking aimlessly, it's me. Help a girl out and tell me where I'm supposed to be. I I'll take care of you, Hailey. I'll take care of
Hailey Windham
03:08
Oh, thank you. So, so much appreciated. So, yes, please join us. Send us a DM if you're interested in being on one of one of our podcasts uh while we're live at uh Money2020 or again, just stop by the booth to say hi. We'd love that. All right. So, Chen normally you're the one asking the questions around here, but like we said, today we are flipping the microphones. Uh, so for anyone who knows Chen Zamir, you probably know him as a builder, uh, a fraud strategist, and someone who has spent a lot of time thinking about where fraud technology is going next. What I think is interesting about where you are today, though, is that that builder word, right? It doesn't really cover it anymore. You're advising, you're educating, you're connecting people, you're writing, you're challenging the industry to think differently. A and so I really want to start there. Uh Chen you've spent a huge part of your career building things to fight fraud. Today you're combating fraud in a lot more ways than just building technology. So how would you describe your mission now?
Chen Zamir
04:10
Well, I think it it's it's always an evolution, right? So I've been doing it for 17 years now. Um, yeah, actually when this episode is out, it's it's officially 17 years and uh I I wore a lot of different hats and, you know, fought fraud uh in in kind of like in all sorts of different capacities. And I think that over the last couple of years, especially when I when I finished my my journey with Frogster, uh it it really became clear to me that there there are two things that kind of like I want to lean in uh or to lean more into. And one of these things is uh helping more teams uh and making sure that you know when I fight fraud I do that with you know the the the most amount of leverage that I can get. And on the other hand uh also sharing uh my experience, sharing my knowledge, sharing my very hard won lessons uh and mistakes and make sure that you know that you know I I I give back to the to the community because you know I I also feel privileged to you know had both the mentors and the resources to you know make all of these mistakes and gain all of this experience. And yeah so I mean naturally I kind of like these two things also go hand in I don't know maybe not naturally but to me these two things go hand in hand. And and currently the current evolution phase of of Chen is is really, well, I I spoke about myself in third person. Now, I won't do that again. I'm sorry. I apologize.
Hailey Windham
05:54
I like it. I like it.
Chen Zamir
05:56
My my current uh uh uh evolution phrase is really to to try and do these two things together. Is it going to last for good? Probably not. Is it going for to last for the next 5 years? Maybe. Probably. I don't know. Let's see.
Hailey Windham
06:13
I I love that. Uh, do you think that that evolution though of of Chen in the third person? Do you think that that evolution was intentional or did you just look around one day and realize that that your role had changed?
Chen Zamir
06:27
I mean, I I always thought it was intentional and I always thought that, you know, I'm in control of my life and in my and my career. But now that you ask it in this way, I'm I'm trying to to reflect on whether this is a conscious decision or just, you know, how like we're alive. I don't know. I'm not sure. But back then when I made these decisions, it these were like very intentional decisions. I I knew that, you know, uh I wanted to keep uh uh chasing like an entrepreneurial life or an entrepreneurial career. And I think that, you know, entrepreneurship can manifest in a lot of different ways and forms. And to me, doing both of these things like doing consulting, doing education, uh and I never know like is it 50/50, is it 60/40, like and to what to which side. Um that seemed to me like a good way to continue this entrepreneurship journey, but maybe without the kind of like VC pressure and you know like the general pressure that you have when you're raising VC funds and you're uh going out and hiring a team and starting and trying to to win a market. So that was the idea back then and it was definitely intentional and after quite a few long months of soulsearching.
Hailey Windham
07:49
I I love that. And I think there's something pretty interesting about going from being the person responsible for building the answer to becoming someone who helps other people figure out what the answer should be. You know, that requires a different kind of thinking. Which brings me to something you mentioned when we were prepping for this conversation, and that's skepticism. Uh you told me one of the biggest lessons from your career has been learning to balance that skepticism with being open to new ideas. I want you to tell the two stories that that taught you that lesson. So let's let's start with the Frogster and and the machine learning algorithm.
Chen Zamir
08:28
Yeah, I mean I'll say that skepticism I I I think it's uh ingrained in me in general. Maybe that's, you know, like me always thinking like an analyst and always kind of like thinking critically about problems, solutions and so on. But I think that as a fraud fighter specifically, um I I have this, you know, uh as I said, a very ingrained notion that if something looks too good to be true, it's too good to be true. And because this is how fraud works and this is how you get scammed. Uh but but be because you know how many times did I write a rule and you know was super proud about myself just to find out you know it's like yeah I blocked like 100,000 accounts but none of them ever kind of like you know transacted or they they did transact but some other rules already blocked them or whatever. You know how many models did I you know uh uh launched and you know saw completely different results in production as opposed to what we've seen in the in the simulation. So, it happened to me so many times in the past that, you know, I I'm I'm kind of like it feels to me that I'm trained to immediately start looking at the bugs and the overfitting and the issues when I see very good results and and and the case that you referred, I actually wrote about it long long long time ago, like almost two years ago. Um like my most co my most costly mistake was when we launched a new algorithm at Frogster and you know there was some like research uh project and the data scientists came back with um yeah very good results much better than our like super sophisticated algorithm proprietary technology blah blah blah that we had back there back then. And the algorithm that he trained was let's say very simplistic in terms of like the architecture and technology and I I couldn't I couldn't believe that's the case. So I sent the team to do more experiments and and more experiments and more experiments like one after another um and always okay let's test it on this vertical and let's test it on this fraud trend and let it it never ceased and in the. And uh I found out that yeah like it's it's just a better model and we went out and you know like uh uh shipped it to production but it took a year since the research was done and until it was in production mainly because I didn't accept that these results that look to me too good to be true um that they are correct. Um, you know, we talked about it before. I mean, the like we just had it we literally just published the foundation model that we train at Sardine for issuing fraud and and I remember that I don't remember who put me on that. I think it was uh maybe it was Soups. Uh yeah we've done some research let's let's write about it. And I remember coming in very skeptic uh about this entire thing foundation models AI okay hype hype hype let's see what actually went down there. And I started you know poking around and asking questions and why did we do it like that and how did we kind of like uh um how did we set up the the the sim simulations and what data did we put in the training. And I found some holes and I asked a couple of questions but still the results uh looked good like very good. And at this point I you know like I I I really kind of like try to consciously tell myself Chen remember that story remember like how pissed were you with yourself um so maybe maybe don't go into this uh rabbit hole this time. And of course, you know, it's it's different like at Frogster, I was the CTO, it was my team. I could tell them to go and waste a year of their time. Um, and in Sardine, obviously, I can ask questions, but I cannot dictate to the data scientist team exactly how they run things. Um, and that's probably for for the best given my prior offenses. Um, but yeah, um, I would say that this is this is definitely one of kind of like the the mistakes that I'm still trying to learn from.
Hailey Windham
13:18
Yeah. So, you positioned uh, you know, the next question perfectly with with how you just ended that. Um, but before I ask it, I I definitely want to say I I feel you, I hear you, I see you. Uh literally I I remember being that practitioner and thinking there's no way this exists. This technology is not we're never going to get where I need it to be. You know, I I need to be able to see everything holistically. And unfortunately, there's too many gaps between connecting data and integrations and whatnot. And then I come here, even before I get here, I'm at money 2020 last year. So, we're about to bring this thing full circle of Hailey and Sardine where I go to a demo and I'm seeing Osent within the case management platform and I'm like, wait a minute, we can do that? That's a thing. And so having that skepticism also like just blindly before even giving it a chance and then getting to see it in action. I I totally understand exactly where you're coming from, man.
Chen Zamir
14:20
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, every fraud fighter probably can relate to this story, uh, to a degree, I'm sure.
Hailey Windham
14:29
Yes. Yes. So, um, you know, again, teeing up that perfect question, uh, or the question perfectly, where is the line between that healthy skepticism and becoming so convinced that you're right that you stop seeing what's possible?
Chen Zamir
14:45
Wow. I don't I don't even know if I if I know right. It's it's a very blurry line. It's a very blurry line. I think I would say it like that and maybe this is kind of like my learning from you know from the last few years. Um it's completely okay to be uh skeptic and it's completely I think it's it's completely fine to have this um this mentality of you know too good to be true. Um I I think it is very important. It's an important guard rail for fraud fighters. However, um if you have enough proof points, you don't necessarily need to prove it to 100% or 110% which is my uh uh unjustified uh bar before you go live. You can still go live if you're convinced 70 80% and if you see okay yes this solution or this whatever that I shipped it works most of the time but not in some use cases or not in all not on all populations or not over time and I need to retrain it or tweak it that's fine. Uh do that as you go. It's better to ship something fast that is slightly crude as as long as it brings some you know like incremental value and um you can always work and you can always Perfect it and you can always validate it uh when it's live. Now of course you can take what I just said and you know really abuse this this statement and and go live with exactly what you don't want to go live. So it's a very blurry line and it's it's very hard for me to draw, you know, this kind of like uh general rule that would always be right for every situation.
Hailey Windham
16:43
Yeah. So true. So is there something that you believe about fraud technology today that Chen from 5 years ago would have argued with you about?
Chen Zamir
16:56
Well, honestly, I think the foundation models uh are are exactly the point. Uh I mean, Chen five years ago would probably not understand what a foundation model is. Um but I think that especially you know like looking at the recent kind of like publications uh and and of course looking very closely at what we've done at Sardine being able to like really understand the experiment not the data the actual experiment and how we how we set it up. But most of all really understand what is the role of foundation models. And in my mind uh a model is a synonym to a scoring mechanism, right? It produces scores and we use these scores to enact whatever our policy, our strategy. Um, but foundation models at least where we see them bring value is actually not with the scoring part. It's actually with enriching the data and creating new features. Um and it's a whole different topic but you know this kind of like mind shift is something that I I you know I I I I can say outright it happened for me only in the last two months. Before that I would say foundation models yeah maybe great maybe not I don't know but no chance it can work in in production because of all sorts of technical limitations considering the scoring use case, but for features that that's a different case and that's something that definitely I definitely only recently learned.
Hailey Windham
18:36
I like that. So, is that how you like pressure test a new idea without immediately dismissing it?
Chen Zamir
18:43
Well, let's say it was again a very important um lesson, a humbling lesson uh for me. Yes. Yes. I have I have a lot of those. Yeah.
Hailey Windham
18:56
Yeah. Yeah. Same. Uh truly I I don't think um I haven't had a week or a month recently where it's like okay you you didn't know what you thought you knew but it's okay it's a learning experience and it's how we grow and it's how we push ourselves to do more and so yeah I I'm I'm right there with you.
Chen Zamir
19:16
Yeah. Yeah. Especially, I mean, with AI and our world in the last two years, it's just it's been a whirlwind and it's very hard to keep up and it's very hard to separate what's hype and what's real. Um, and you know, that's that's also like literally our job. Um, so yeah. Um, yeah, step by step.
Hailey Windham
19:36
Yeah. Yeah. I I think that that willingness to to challenge your own think think thinking, you know, actually leads perfectly into what you've built outside of your day job because you've created an entire platform around thinking more strategically about fraud. Um so obviously we are recording uh this for the fraud uh the Saturday Fraud Strategist. So we talk um we have to talk about the name. Uh but first of all, why Saturday?
Chen Zamir
20:03
All right, Hailey, you're going to get an exclusive. This is a story I never
Hailey Windham
20:10
An exclusive for your podcast on your podcast. Here we go.
Chen Zamir
20:14
For you. Yeah. Uh, and it's something that I I think I I never shared, by the way, not because uh like I hiding it or anything, but just because I never got to talk about uh the name. But actually when I when I going back to the to what I talked about before um my like me ending the journey with Frogster and thinking what's next and thinking about entrepreneurship. Um I knew that whatever I'll do I want my next kind of like phase uh to be like solo entrepreneur not to have a team not to have co-founders not to have investors and so on and I started uh following a guy that produces a lot of content for uh solopreneurs. Uh his name is Justin Welsh. I highly recommend him especially if you're interested in uh making content and Justin Welsh has um I I think he still does has a newsletter and the newsletter is called the Saturday solopreneur. He talks uh in this uh in this newsletter about a ton of different topics, but one of these topics was how important it is to start your own newsletter when you're trying to kind of like position yourself in the market as a as a solopreneur, as an advisor, as a whatever like completely like it directly gave me the idea of uh of you know starting my own email list, a The Saturday Fraud Strategist. The original newsletter uh uh uh on which this podcast was named. But also the name itself, the reason why I liked it is because the the Saturday solopreneur was also like distributed on Saturday and I would read it every Saturday. It was like 5 minute read every Saturday and at that moment I understood that this is my passion. I really want to learn about this. This is not part of my job. This is not part of my workday. I don't do that on my laptop. I do that, you know, on my phone when I'm drinking my coffee on Saturday morning. These are exactly the kind of folks that I want to uh talk to uh that I want to engage with in my newsletter. And so the Saturday Fraud Strategist was a a shameless shameless theft from Justin Welsh, but but also um kind of like you know um um a declaration of who I see my my audience as. And you know many times people kind of like reach out to me and you know like refer to me as the Saturday Fraud Strategist but that's the thing. I'm not the Saturday Fraud Strategist and that's the thing because a lot of folks uh reach out to me and say oh yeah you're the uh Saturday Fraud Strategist and that's exactly the point. It's not that I am the Saturday Fraud Strategist. You are the Saturday Fraud Strategist. I'm not writing this newsletter on Saturday. I'm not waking up at 3:00 a.m. and writing it. You are reading it on Saturday. Uh you are the strategist it you're reading it on Saturday because it is important to you. It is because you are passionate about it and that is basically what the name uh signifies but also shameless theft for sure
Hailey Windham
23:40
Well I will have you know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, okay? That was uh from uh the Charles Coloulton, um, in his 1820 book, just so you know. I had to look up the the quote for you. Um um I love
Chen Zamir
23:57
The quote I know and if I if I don't know the the person who who said it first, it's always Mark Twain. That would be my
Hailey Windham
24:02
There you go. There you go. I I would I would go with that as well. So, um I I love that. I love that you, you know, have have obviously shared who you imagine uh the the fraud strategists are. Um I I love that that that you know, hopefully they're enjoying you for five minutes while they're drinking their coffee. Um, so do you think the audience has changed at all? And we can say, you know, from the beginning of the newsletter to now the podcast,
Chen Zamir
24:32
I think I had a couple of uh different uh personas or different types of folks uh in my mind when I first uh started writing. And a big part of that was because, you know, uh I had to answer it to myself like who am I? Am I sharing? Am I a practitioner sharing my knowledge with practitioners? Am I a builder sharing my knowledge with builders? Am I a founder sharing my knowledge with founders or with execs? So I would say it started uh a bit of a mixed bag. Uh but as time progressed, I think I kind of like uh started talking less and less to execs. Uh and to builders and really talk to practitioners in all levels. Uh so from you know like the analysts, specialist, investigator level to you know like the head of VP whatever uh CRO um but mainly to practitioners. Yes. Um but it I would say it was more kind of like a niching down slash pruning um journey more so than a shift.
Hailey Windham
25:50
Yeah. I can I can see that and I I think I've I've gone through the same thing as well. But I definitely started talking to the practitioners because I felt like they needed to have somebody that was in their corner and somebody that understood where they are, where they could be, and what could be next for them. Which, you know, brings me to my next question to you is, [Ad Break 26:15 hey folks, I want to take a quick break to speak about today's sponsor, me. If you're finding this useful, do me a small favor, like and subscribe. It really helps with the algorithm. And if you're not already on my newsletter, the Saturday Fraud Strategist, you should definitely check it out. Every Saturday, I break down fraud trends, real cases, and strategies from my own experience of building and operating fraud prevention systems. Whether you're new to the space or a season practitioner, I'm sure you'll find it interesting. Check the link in the description. Takes 2 seconds. You'll thank yourself next Saturday. Now, back to the video. ]
Hailey Windham
26:48
What is the fraud strategist? Like what does being a fraud strategist mean to you in in regards to either how you're positioning your content and and how they are receiving it or what maybe they're doing with with what you're providing afterwards.
Chen Zamir
27:09
You're asking tough questions today, Hailey.
Hailey Windham
27:11
That I told you I was putting you in the hot seat.
Chen Zamir
27:15
Um I think you know as always in our industry everybody has or you know put two people in the same room and ask them you know about a term then they will have like three definitions. Um so people have all sorts of different concepts in their minds uh when it comes to fraud strategists and what they are. And I must say that I see it less of a role and less of a function and more as a state of mind uh or a mindset. And to me, strategy means that you're thinking about long-term goals and effects that you want to achieve rather than how to go about it tactically. Um, I actually I wrote it I think not so long ago. Uh ah but I didn't release this newsletter yet so maybe I won't spoil it too much. Uh but I would say that you know I think that I always say at least I don't know if you would agree with me. I always say that predictive fraud analytics is is I don't want to say a joke but it's kind of like you know it's it's a fab. It's a fab. And I say that as someone who believed that this is real and claimed that this is what they do for a very very long time. They came to realize no that we're not doing really uh we're not doing predictive analytics here and in the best cases maybe we are proactive but I think a lot of folks misinterpret what proactive means in fraud fighting. They think they imagine that they would be able to be one step ahead of fraudsters. Never. It's not ever going to happen ever. You're lucky if you're two steps behind fraudsters and not 10. That's kind of like the best of your ambitions or at least that's how I sit realistically and skeptically. Um, so if we cannot be proactive and if we cannot be predictive, what's the what's the point of fraud strategy? And to me the point of fraud strategy is to make sure that when you are reactive when something happens and this can be a fraud attack but it can also be you know like something breaking in the system and false positives spiking or customers complaining or partners complain whatever that you can react to that uh effectively efficiently and with very little uh you know wood chips uh flying over all over the place. Uh now you you can go uh much deeper into what that means and if you are if you're subscribed to my newsletter just wait for a week or two. Um but yeah basically basically to me this is fraud strategy. How do I build and create the capacity to react to fraud at scale?
Hailey Windham
30:18
I'm so glad that that's what you said. Um, when you started talking about predictive fraud analytics and you seemed hype for a second, I was like, "Oh no, Chen and I are about to have our first disagreement where I'm going to tell him I also think that broad anal fraud predictive analytics are not real. You how how are we going to predict that? We're not going to be that's not a thing. That's not a thing at all." Um, I'm so glad that that's what you said because honestly I was so afraid that we were about to have our first disagreement live on your podcast and that was not going to be good. Crisis averted. Thank goodness. Um, but yeah, totally agree and I love the way that you frame that also and I wrote that down as hopefully uh one of the shorts that we'll use for this episode, but where you said that it's not about, you know, even whenever we misuse or misinterpret the word proactive. Proactive just means that we're going to be able to react better. Proactive fraud strategy is being able to effectively and efficiently react when fraud happens and plug the holes, use the duct tape or whatever we have on hand to get it right and then we can strategize how to how to really make it work smoothly with the overall um infrastructure of our organization.
Chen Zamir
31:38
Absolutely. And I think this is exactly it. Like when you're when you're busy with tactics, you are reactive by definition. Uh when you're busy with, you know, like managing this fire right now, you're being tactical by definition. And my job as a fraud strategist and definitely a a a person that tries to educate and elevate fraud strategist is to help you elevate your discourse from the tactical level to the strategic level. Because only on the strategic level you can truly be proactive. That's that's how I see it.
Hailey Windham
32:15
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that fraud teams spend enough time actually thinking strategically or are we just so consumed by today's queue that strategy constantly gets pushed to tomorrow?
Chen Zamir
32:29
Really depends on the team. Uh I' I've seen all sorts of teams and yes there are definitely like teams out there that they are that are thinking strategically. Sometimes it's just one person, sometimes it's just the the leader of that team. And and sometimes, you know, it's like it's it's most of it. Um but really the the tell the very clear tell is how um how much of your day-to-day goes into putting out fires and how stressed you are by putting out fires. And if that's the case, I guarantee that you're being sucked to the tactics. You're not putting resources and resources include also attention uh just attention into the strategic layer and and and that's your Achilles heel basically. Uh and it's a vicious cycle. It's a vicious cycle that is very hard to get out of. And and usually, you know, when I when I go into like a new client and a new kind of like engagement, that's kind of like the cycle that you want to break up.
Hailey Windham
33:34
Yeah. So, of course, uh you know, giving other people strategic advice is one thing. Um but now I'm going to call us both out. Following our own advice is entirely different situation. Um what is one piece of advice you regularly give clients that you're terrible at following yourself?
Chen Zamir
33:56
Um well I I'll start by saying that like we we as as as people on this earth uh and in 2026 we all consume so many tips and guides and best practices and playbooks and whatnot. Um, and there's this pressure that you know you you're you're always not up to par with all of the things that you should be doing or how you should be doing that. And so I will say that I say a lot of things. I say a lot of things. It doesn't mean that I, you know, that I keep them 100% of the time each and every time. Uh, I always I also make mistakes. I I make a lot of mistakes. Um and I also get inspired by others. Uh it happens almost on a daily basis, right? Um and so I would start by saying that I don't think that like you should stress like you the audience should stress about it too much. Uh I try also not to stress because you know I always consume a lot of content around how to create content or how to build your brand and there are like gazillion things that I can be doing right now. Uh, and I'm
Hailey Windham
35:17
Right same.
Chen Zamir
35:18
Having said that, um, one thing that I'm that I can share that I'm like historically bad at is and I think that has to do with me being a builder is that, you know, it's very hard for me to outsource building. Um, so lucky for me there is AI today. Uh so I can be much more efficient and effective. But it is very very hard for me to you know like get um outside of like step outside of the mindset of someone can do it as at least as good as I can not to mention better. Um, and that's that's a that's a cycle that I find myself in uh very often. And I saw that when I was building a fraud product and I see that today when I'm building, you know, my own u my own systems uh within Sardine within Native Risk. Um there, you know, builders are pretty bad at uh at requesting help. Uh and that's something I for sure I can get better at.
Hailey Windham
36:24
Yeah, I can I can relate to that one. Um, I don't know even know if it's necessarily uh if if it's like asking for help even in the sense of well maybe I can just do it faster. I'll just do it myself. You know, it's it's really hard uh delegating or asking. Um I think a lot of high performing people fall into this trap of you know I can I can do it myself. Let me do it. Um, I'm even guilty of this as a mom where, you know, it's like, "Go pick this up." Well, they're not doing it the way I would have picked it up. So then I'm like, "Well, let me just do it." But then what does that teach them, right? Um, and what does it do to me? It adds to my stress level. So why not just let them do it at their own pace? Um, and you know, who knows? They might learn something or see something better. Um I think the question ultimately will come down to especially in our uh in our uh fraud labs is you know maybe maybe you you can do it faster or you can do it yourself but should you uh should you do it yourself? Should you just let someone else do it so that you can focus on other things?
Chen Zamir
37:33
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean it's it's exactly that. It's it's very easy to fall into exactly the trap say I can do it better. Maybe I can do it even faster but I can do it better. But there are a lot of things that I can do right now. Especially with AI, it's like in this world, there are so many options that you know open up to you as a person and your skill set that uh you know, you get pulled to into so many directions. Uh and it's very hard to decide with a clear head where your time and attention should go uh to and and where you may maybe you can let other people help with that. Um, yeah, for sure. I I can look at it from a different perspective uh to make it kind of like grounded into the fraud fighting world. I see a lot of teams that build stuff unnecessarily like there's so much shit out there that you can buy and plug in like why like why build it for the 100th time yourself? Why spend the time like why go onto this two-year adventure that you think is a one month adventure? Uh so many times like you know I I I don't get frustrated with such teams but you know I I see that very often I see it kind of like especially especially in fintech where the ethos of teams is that we are going to build something we are not bankers we are technologists we are the tech in the fintech um and it's very easy to fall into the trap of let's build our own rule engine and device ID and graph uh network analysis tool and KYC process and whatever. Uh but it's it's been done before and by probably more than uh not just Sardine let's say like that.
Hailey Windham
39:20
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you you mentioned something else that I just want to kind of double click on for a second. You mentioned like you know your attention and then um deep work. When did you realize that those were resources that you needed to protect?
Chen Zamir
39:36
I think honestly I think it was when I joined Sardine. When I joined Sardine, I suddenly realized that I have now two content engines that I need to work. One for Native Risk uh and one for Sardine. And uh and I also realized that I became basically like a full-time author. It was also the time where I was still writing my book. Um so I I had a book and and two full content engines and all I did was write. And I realized that, you know, I had several laptops on my desk and I just, you know, like skip between the different laptops and uh and operate whatever system to write a blog, a newsletter, a LinkedIn uh uh uh post, the book. Uh it was all over the place. Um and AI can help like to a point, right? Um, and I realized first of all that when I like starting when I'm starting to jump between all of these different threads, um, I realized two things. One, I suddenly found myself like back in my founder days because that was like a like this very high narrative shift, high interrupt uh, kind of like day-to-day routine that I was used to. Like I would go into my day, it would be like 10 hours back to back and it would go from you know HR policy meeting to like deep dive into this algorithm test results and then go into like an engineering planning session and then go back and you know prep for a board meeting and this is something that you can get addicted to. You can get addicted to, you know, like I'm doing so many things and I'm so productive and um and you know the adrenaline and so on. But I also realized that you tend to think less and you also tend to especially with AI, you tend to kind of like um give it too much leash. Um and that's not something that that that you want to do with AI today. Um, and so I I understood and I actually had to, you know, like work on these like different elements separately and make sure that, you know, my full attention is is devoted to them. And even if I have like some downtime because, you know, Claude is running something in the background or whatever, I'm waiting for, you know, someone to to return with an answer, um, I try not to, you know, just jump to the the the next project. That that can be quite um you know you can do that if you're super stressed but in the long term that can be quite um uh detrimental.
Hailey Windham
42:20
Yeah. So true. Um so then I'll I'll again ask you the hard question. What is something that you're still doing yourself right now that you absolutely know you should hand off?
Chen Zamir
42:31
I don't know. You know, and not knowing. I wonder if that's like me in a very good place or me in a very bad place that I'm not even aware. Uh so, yes, it's a tough question. I I uh more more things to reflect on uh when I go to sleep tonight.
Hailey Windham
42:54
Sorry. That's one of those things that'll keep you up until 3:00 a.m. Yeah,
Chen Zamir
42:59
For sure.
Hailey Windham
43:00
Yeah. Sorry about that. Um, I know that like one of the things I struggle with is at least even writing down what things I'm still doing manually that I know I could use AI to help me with that. It's just the the task of sitting down to write that list just is one of those ADHD things that I'm like, I would rather watch paint dry than write that list, but I know it will help me. So, I need to do something like that.
Chen Zamir
43:29
Yeah, I get it. I get it.
Hailey Windham
43:31
Yeah. So, there's another group of people who struggle, I think, with with this enormously, and that's people who decide to work for themselves. You made that leap, right? So, let's finish with some practical advice for anyone listening who has been quietly wondering whether they could do the same thing. So, someone listening right now has spent years working inside a bank, a fintech, a fraud team, or even a technology company. They know they're good at what they do and they're thinking maybe I could actually advise people on this. What is the first thing that you would tell them?
Chen Zamir
44:07
The first thing I would ask ask actually ask them a question and I would ask like how do they envision their uh their work or their day-to-day in whatever that means um when they say I want to work for myself because I think different people and also with different experience levels have different notions of what it means some would say I just want to be a freelancer I still want to be like a fraud professional but I'll just freelance. Um, and some would say that, you know, uh, I'm a CRO. Uh, and I still I want to work for myself, so I'll be a um, like a a fractional CRO uh, or a fractional, you know, chief compliance officer or whatever. That's completely different. Um, some would say, yeah, I want just to do like uh, more strategy pro like more advisory. Uh so is advisory like you sitting down with you know like a leader a VP a C level and talking to them like having a one-on-one one every week or is it that you coming in and you're doing like a full-time two month project. So there are a lot of different um different ways that in which you can like work for yourself and obviously you know all of these things really dictate how your sales pipeline should look like who's your ICP how you build content around it and all of that. But I think this is kind of like how you start. Um I think there are two things that I would say. The first one is that you need to understand that when you are saying that I want to work for myself. You are no longer a fraud fighter. You are no longer a fraud analyst or a fraud investigator or you know a head of fraud. You are no longer that. You are now a business owner.
Hailey Windham
46:06
Yeah.
Chen Zamir
46:07
And being a business owner means that first and foremost you're in charge of sales and you're in charge of marketing and you're in charge of admin which include finance and legal. Um and you need to have all of that in place to get your first customer. And only after you get your first customer then you can do what you love to do, what you used to do, what is easy for you to do. Um these are honestly in my mind the easy and boring parts of my work doing the job. Um so one understand that this is like a very big shift and is it really what you want? Uh I I don't think that everybody that talks to me about this kind of like possibility really understand what that entails and that's fine but I think it's it's it's important to to realize that. The second thing that I will say is that uh in order to get booked, you need to have attention. Uh people need to know who you are, know or know who you are, trust you and know that you are uh available for this kind of work that you imagine yourself doing. And to do that, you can build attention in one of two ways. And you can do one of them, and you can do both of them. But I never heard of anyone successful long-term that did neither of these. So there are two things that you can do. One is that you can hit everybody in your network and have a coffee with them. You don't ask them for anything. You don't ask them for a work for a job. You don't ask them if they know someone who is looking for uh I don't know like a consultant or friends. You don't ask any of that. You have a coffee. You you catch up, you say what you're up to and you check if there's any way that you can help. Not for any kind of um uh gratitude, right? Like is there a way that you can help them? Um and you need to do that constantly and consistently. That's way number one. Way number two or second method is uh to go berserk on content and to just make sure that people know who you are and trust you and uh uh and know that you are available for these kind of uh projects not because you talk to them but because you talked at them. And these two things, what they what they do, what basically the the engine that you want to put in place is the fact that when someone suddenly has a need or someone calls them a friend and that friend has a need, the first name that pops into their head is, "Oh, it's Hailey." Yeah, I know. I have the perfect person for you, Hailey. And this is because they just read a post of you yesterday or read a uh a newsletter or uh or had a call with you last week. And do that enough uh and over a long period of time that doesn't happen overnight like at all at all. Do that enough um and and and people will start uh reaching out or your network will start reaching out.
Hailey Windham
49:28
I love that and it it resonates with me just because I recently went through it myself. Um but then I I joined the the Sardine team. But it's exactly right. Making sure that you know when you're reaching out it's not for any disingenuous reason. It is honestly just to say hey how can I help? We're not looking I'm not looking for compensation. I just want you to know that I'm here and I have the this experience and this knowledge and this know how and I'd love to, you know, advise or talk or whatever. And it just starts out as friendly and then eventually it turns into a a paid for gig down the road through word of mouth, through referrals, through things like that. Um, yeah, I literally experience just that.
Chen Zamir
50:14
And and I would say just to be like super super clear when I say you know check how you can help and when you say this is not like pay for uh sorry work for free this is not what uh this is about right. It's not about offering your services for free. It is to see if you can give them a piece of advice is to see if you can give them if you can refer uh them to someone that you know that can help or something that you read that can help or something that you've written that can help. That's the best combo. Uh or um you can maybe connect them to someone in your network that you know is looking for for a job and they are ready to join full-time or you know a good vendor that can fix their problem. You can like uh get them a nice introduction. So there are a lot of different ways to help not to mention like personal stuff as well uh that doesn't require you to work for free. Never do that.
Hailey Windham
51:08
Right. Yep. Um, okay. Last uh last question. Um, well, I say last question, I'll probably have another one for you, but if someone uh listening decides today that, you know, a year from now, I want to have the option to work for myself, what should they start doing this week?
Chen Zamir
51:25
Exactly these two things. Like, start with these two things. Now, you don't need to understand who you want to work with and how you want to do it and whether you want to do that. But like my biggest regret is that I didn't start with these two things with these like attention engines a year before I started. Um this would uh put you in a very very different position when you decide to start and when you decide to start um and and a much better position at that. Now the nice thing is if you end up deciding not to do that you don't want to be you know like to to kind of like go on your own what you would gain by doing these things by getting attention to you can cannot hurt you in any way. Even if you decide to continue with your career kind of like you know like be the the the salary man salary woman and kind of like step up the ladder and so on more people would know about you. Uh it would be much easier for you to DM your way into uh a role. It would be you would get so like the like I remember me being frustrated in the first 6 months of me like uh starting with my content is that I would get job offers like you know full-time job offers which is not what I wanted. Uh and I would get frustrated because I would like waste my time when people who are not serious and don't want me to consult them they want me to join the team. Um so doing that whether you've decided now or not uh I think anyway serves a purpose and honestly I would recommend doing that to anyone literally it can only improve your uh your life like literally.
Hailey Windham
53:13
So Chen we are going to flip this whole thing again because next you'll be interviewing me over on fraud forward.
Chen Zamir
53:19
Yes.
Hailey Windham
53:20
But before I give you your microphone back, um I want to end with this last final question. You've built tech fraud technology, you've advised companies, you're educating people, you're connecting people, you're writing and podcasting about this industry. What are you trying to build now that can't be measured in code, revenue, or a product map?
Chen Zamir
53:48
Wow. Uh I think you know it's like uh a perfect tie to our previous topic, relationships, right? Um I know that the relationships that I've built from my laptop with complete strangers uh but Hailey and I never met in person never
Hailey Windham
54:06
Yeah Money 2020 we're going to put it in the books.
Chen Zamir
54:09
Yeah. Yeah. Um Hailey you know you are just one example. The amount of relationships that I've made and that you know I I would get regardless of what kind of you know like opportunities or or revenue would come out of it doesn't matter. It's like it's I I know that I'm richer for it. Um and I know that it fulfills me um on a different level. So that's you know 100% relationship.
Hailey Windham
54:37
So true. So true and so important in this industry man.
Chen Zamir
54:41
Yeah.
Hailey Windham
54:42
What a How LinkedIn has changed my career.
Chen Zamir
54:46
Yeah.
Hailey Windham
54:46
The power of connections and relationships.
Chen Zamir
54:49
Yeah. Yeah.
Hailey Windham
54:51
All right. Chen Zamir, the Saturday Fraud Strategist, I can't thank you enough for letting me steal your microphone for for this episode.
Chen Zamir
54:59
You know, it's been a pleasure, Hailey. I now because we haven't recorded yours yet. We we are two days away from it. Now I will uh I will prep myself very well so I know to crank up the heat. Uh so so I I give you some I dish out some uh hard questions of my own. Uh I'll think about it.
Hailey Windham
55:19
Bring it on. I'm so excited.
Chen Zamir
55:21
Awesome. Hailey, it was it was a pleasure having you on. Uh we should do it again sometime.
Hailey Windham
55:26
I would love that. Thank you so much. Chen
Chen Zamir
55:28
Thank you. Uh and for all of you folks, I see you next Saturday.
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