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The Saturday Fraud Strategist

AI Made Building Cheap. What Are Fraud Vendors Still For?

64 min

There has always been an arms race in the vendor space, and this year it has been about AI. At the same time, the practitioners I talk with are building far more than they used to. A few weeks ago I spoke with a risk leader who described what her team built in house, and it was impressive. That made me wonder whether the ground is shifting beneath vendors, and whether we will still need them in a year or two.

I invited Netanel Kabala to help me think it through. Netanel and I met at PayPal 17 years ago, when he started as a fraud analyst after the acquisition of PayPal’s Tel Aviv fraud sciences team. He later co-founded Simplex, the first crypto on-ramp provider, led AI and analytics at Nuvei after the acquisition, and recently co-founded Duly, which helps payment providers and fintechs own their decisioning stack. We look at building vs buying fraud vendors from several angles, including vendor fatigue, what teams build first, and what foundation models and decision models change. We don’t land on a yes or no answer, and I think that’s the honest result. Instead, we sketch where to build, where to buy, and where joint development makes sense.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

  • Why vendor fatigue is pushing teams to build, and what that means for the vendor relationship
  • Why the most successful in-house builds so far are small tools that save one expert time and don’t replace a whole platform
  • How vendors are shifting from end-to-end solutions toward data providers, with network data and device intelligence valued most by larger teams
  • Why manual review viewers are easy to build with AI coding, and why a rule engine is a very different kind of project
  • How AI slop shows up in risk teams, from dozens of models built overnight to latency and drift monitoring problems nobody planned for
  • What foundation models and decision models change about features, anomaly detection, and who can deploy a real-time fraud model
  • Why segmentation is the best place to start, and why building generic capabilities like KYC or sanction screening is a trap
  • How to judge whether your organization is ready to build, including engineering support, access to risk talent, and leadership buy-in
  • Why the maintenance trap catches analysts who become product manager, DevOps engineer, and backend engineer at once

You should listen to this episode if you:

  • Lead a fraud or risk team and are deciding what to build and what to keep buying
  • Feel vendor fatigue and want a clearer way to think about which relationships still earn their place
  • Have built something in house with AI and want to know whether it can scale
  • Need to explain to leadership what a build roadmap requires beyond a quick proof of concept
  • Want to know how foundation models and decision models may change the feature layer and vendor data
Episode notes & key takeaways

Vendor fatigue is pushing teams to build

Netanel hears the same thing from teams across the industry. Everyone feels pressure to build, and that pressure started well before AI models were good enough to do the work. Now they are, and vendor fatigue has met real capability. The most successful builds he has seen are small, like a strong team member creating a tool that cuts the handling time of a task. For years, vendors offered a complete package of a decision, a guarantee, or a score, because teams lacked the expertise and bandwidth to use anything else. Today teams say they can handle something more granular and want pieces they can customize. My view is that vendors will increasingly be seen as data providers, and the heavy real-time engineering will still sit with them. The relationship is changing, and it will look different in each industry.

Viewers are easy to build and rule engines are not

Netanel separates viewers from actionable products. Manual review cockpits are the easy part, because AI coding makes them simple to customize and teams are tired of waiting for a vendor to prioritize a change. A rule engine is a different job. It is backend engineering that needs real-time performance, high availability, efficient data access, and testing and simulation. At Simplex, a Python rule engine built from the start let the team switch between strategies automatically. Most teams begin with manual analytical work, like pulling data from several sources to review a payment, and few want to replace a vendor’s algorithm outright. He also named a risk I recognize, AI slop. A team facing a new fraud problem can release 20 models overnight, and then latency and drift monitoring become problems nobody planned for.

Foundation models change the feature layer and not the whole job

I asked Netanel whether foundation models threaten vendors, because they replace the handcrafted feature layer where vendors built their edge. He believes standard LLMs have already taken over much of that work. Ask one which features to derive from a data set, and he estimates you get about 80% of what a team of specialists would produce. He sees the real value of foundation models in advanced anomaly detection. I added that the strongest results I have seen involve a known entity with history. The bigger change may be semi-deterministic decision models, which are forced to reach a decision and use an LLM for judgment. They raise the value of external data, network data, and feature stores. His chef analogy stayed with me. Having the ingredients isn’t the same as knowing what to do when the dish boils early, or when an attack wasn’t in the simulation.

Build where your segments are underserved

Netanel’s first piece of advice is to think about segmentation. New and returning users, geographies, products, and payment methods behave very differently. Look for pockets that underperform or have weak economics, and try something there, whether that is another vendor, AI, a custom solution, or a new hire. I would add that this is where building pays off most. A bigger business likely has a segment unique to it that no vendor will solve. Stolen cards are not that segment, and neither are sanction screening or KYC. Spending your time there is the trap. His second piece of advice is to ask how central risk is to your business. Then look at your roadmap from the last six to twelve months and count what was delayed because the risk setup made it too hard. If you build, think in atomic units of the decision, and decide whether to produce or buy each one.

Readiness and the maintenance trap

Netanel said most risk leaders trust their teams highly, and that can be a blind spot. He advises looking at the organization. Does it have the engineering capability, will the C level support a project that costs more before it pays back, and can you keep finding risk talent? I added the part teams miss most. Building is the easy part and maintenance is where it breaks down. An analyst can end up as the product manager, DevOps engineer, backend engineer, and UX engineer for their own tool. They don’t stop being an analyst. They stop maintaining the project. Getting leadership buy-in takes a different skill set than building a proof of concept in two days, and the build trap doesn’t skip risk teams.

Final takeaway

Building vs buying fraud vendors is not a question with a yes or no answer. It is a question about which pieces of your decisioning stack you need to own and which you are better off buying. The teams that do this well will start with their segments, count the cost of maintaining what they build, and get leadership aligned before the first line of code. We ended with more question marks than exclamation points, and I think that is right for a topic that is still moving this fast.

Not ready to stop the conversation about my, and hopefully your, favorite subject? Subscribe to The Saturday Fraud Strategist newsletter.

Connect with Netanel Kabala | LinkedIn
Co-Founder at Duly

Connect with Chen Zamir | LinkedIn
Host of The Saturday Fraud Strategist
Helping fintechs build smarter fraud defenses
Co-author of “The Fraud Fighter’s AI Playbook”

Episode transcript
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:00
If you go and ask an LLM this is my data set
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:02
which features I should derive from?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:05
You'll have I I dare say 80% of the value that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:08
would be created by a team of professionals.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:11
I'm not sure you you even need data, training data I mean.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:15
I think that there's vendor fatigue.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:17
Everyone has pressure or desire or motivation to build.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:21
Whether to buy, I think that the real promise or square depends
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:25
on which side of the fence you're on is the new
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:36
What's up everybody?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:37
Welcome to another episode of the Saturday Fraud Strategist.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:40
With me today, Netanel Kabala.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:42
Netanel, we've been uh we we've known each other for
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
00:46
17 years, I believe. Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:49
Yeah. Okay, you said it. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:52
And you know we've known each other for a long time.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:55
Uh funnily enough I I'll let you introduce yourself and tell you tell
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:00
a bit about uh your own journey in the fraud prevention uh space.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:04
Uh but I'll say you know from my side uh that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:06
our journeys are very very similar.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:09
Uh maybe yours is a bit more successful.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:11
Uh but yeah I'll I'll let you introduce yourself and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:14
tell tell our audience a bit more about yourself.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:18
I'm uh I started uh my fintech journey uh in
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:20
PayPal uh 17 years ago where I met Chen.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:23
Um I started as a fraud uh analyst uh as part of uh PayPal's
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:27
Tel Aviv fraud science fraud sciences acquisition.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:30
Joined briefly after the acquisition.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:33
Uh I spend most of my time on seller side risk uh creating
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:37
uh different strategies models for uh PayPal's sellers.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:40
Um and after five years where I became also a manager and
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:44
a group manager, I left PayPal to pursue the uh my uh founder
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:48
dreams and uh co-founded a company called Simplex.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:52
Uh Simplex was basically the first crypto
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:54
on-ramp provider uh globally.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
01:56
Um, we allowed different businesses in the crypto space, uh, most
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:01
notably exchanges and wallets to provide their customers with,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:05
uh, uh, the option to purchase crypto via uh, uh, payment cards
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:09
and later on via other payment methods all with a full uh,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:13
chargeback guarantee and the full end to end solution.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:16
So I was in charge of everything related to
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:19
risk, compliance, data science and so on.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:22
Uh um the company was acquired by Nuvei in 2021.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:25
And I then spent uh three and a half years in charge
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:29
of Nuvei's AI and analytics department.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:31
Um and after a small break and some uh consultancy I
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:35
recently uh co-founded a new company called Duly.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:38
Duly is uh basically trying to help uh different businesses uh most
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:43
notably uh payment providers and uh FinTech to own their
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:46
decisioning stack uh and to build uh the capabilities that they
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
02:50
need to grow and and be as successful as top tier companies in that space.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:43
That's an amazing story.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:44
Uh as I said, very similar to my own, a tiny bit more successful.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:48
You know the reason why I wanted to bring you on the show and the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:53
topic that uh we wanted to discuss today, also to an extent ties
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:57
uh to to what you guys are thinking of doing uh with Duly now,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:01
but uh there's an arms race right in the vendor space.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:05
And there was always an arms race in the vendor space.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:08
It's it's it's forever the dynamic of the field.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:12
Evidently like very obviously in the last year
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:15
uh it was all about AI in the last year.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:17
And so vendors are all trying to develop
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:20
these new capabilities around AI.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:22
And this is interesting because this is what I'm seeing uh
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:26
on the practitioner side on like in the teams themselves.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:30
Uh and with uh we had uh Lilitha Rao uh from Imprint
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:33
uh just a few weeks ago here on the pod.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:36
And and you know she described what they've built in
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:39
house which was you know very very impressive.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:43
Uh a lot of the clients that you know I I meet and talked to today they
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:47
are doing much more building than they've been doing in the past.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:52
And so I'm thinking to myself while you know vendors
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:55
are kind of like trying to reach for the frontier
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
04:58
this moving frontier uh ever moving frontier.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:01
Um I'm thinking is the ground shifting beneath vendors fit here?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:06
Um would we actually need vendors in one or two years?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:09
Uh would they have their own uh place?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:12
And you know of course the reason why I'm asking all of that is because
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:16
building software in general has become very cheap, very accessible.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:21
Uh much smaller teams with much less budget can now um
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:25
you know like go after much more ambitious projects.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:28
And fraud prevention was always an and still is an ambitious project.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:33
I really wanted to you know bring you uh to the pod and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:36
discuss you know where where is the industry going?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:40
And are we going to see this shift?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:42
So I'll start by asking like what's your view on
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:45
this change, and and and how do you see it?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:00
The change is significant I I would say.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:02
During the uh new company's ideation process I
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:05
talked to uh many people from many companies.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:08
And the common thread was that everyone one has
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:11
pressure or desire or motivation to build.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:14
Whether to uh than to buy.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:16
It started as an external pressure I believe way before
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:20
AI was mature enough to actually perform these tasks.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:23
But now the models have uh improved so much that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:26
some of these things are actually useful.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:29
Um so I I think that um there's vendor fatigue.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:32
That's one thing uh that happened you know um.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:35
And together with these AI capabilities people
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:38
are starting to ask can I build it myself?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:41
Can I build part of it myself?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:43
Uh and I think everyone is struggling with this.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:46
Some of the most more successful attempted that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:49
I've seen are uh mostly isolated I would say.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:52
Usually a very strong team member did something
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:56
uh that only he or she could use.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
06:58
Maybe some other power power users.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:00
But it mostly improves or reduces the
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:03
handling time uh of different tasks.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:05
Rather than uh replace a complete system.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:43
Yes.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:43
Um so I think that's where the the market is is at right now.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:47
Um you know that in in the past vendors were
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:50
uh offering the the complete package.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:52
To this day many many of the vendors in the
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:55
space are offering an end to end solution.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
07:58
Um which was mandatory uh until uh recently.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:01
Uh give me a decision, give me a guarantee, give
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:04
me a a score, give me something that I could offload
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:07
the work to and and make a decision upon.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:10
Um, and today what I'm hearing from companies is no,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:13
we we we didn't have the expertise nor the bandwidth
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:17
to consume anything other than that in the past. But now we can.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:21
If you give us something more granular, we can handle it.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:25
Uh, and we can uh uh actually help it will
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
08:28
help us customize what we have in house.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:51
Yeah, it's uh it's I I I see it as well where
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:54
there's a I don't want to say confusion.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:56
Because it's not the right word, but I think the market
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:00
is still adjusting to understand who is supplying the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:03
data and who's supplying the decisioning platform.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:07
Um and I don't think, I I I think it used
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:09
to be relatively straightforward.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:12
Where you know like uh uh businesses would supply their
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:15
own data, vendors would enrich it with their own kind of
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:19
like network data their their specialized features.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:22
And provide the entire kind of like you know
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:25
like analytical uh decision layer.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:28
Whether this is ML, whether this is a rule engine combination.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:32
Um and today things are much more fluid and I would like I think
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:36
as you also said uh I also see the breakdown not between
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:40
like data and platform but sometimes between use cases.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:43
Some use cases you know are maybe easier
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:46
to build, some use cases are less easy.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:49
Um and so I see that there is like I would say a lack of uh real, I
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:53
would say doctrine or guidelines behind like for practitioners.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:57
Uh living vendors aside, um as to how to approach it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:01
And how to decide whether to build or buy.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:04
Uh and I think this is like in our conversation I'm guessing at the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:08
end of it uh I'd like to for us to kind of like maybe suggest some
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:13
of these concepts for how to to manage these decisions now and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:17
try to understand like what was the role that vendors played.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:21
Uh from a practitioner's perspective in their platform,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:24
and how do you think that has evolved?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
10:45
So as I said before.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
10:46
I think that in the past uh vendors were expected
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Netanel Kabala
10:49
to provide a wholesome solution.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
10:51
Uh an end to end solution that is uh I I would say a kind of a
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
10:55
replacement to old school uh uh consultancy or contractual work.
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Netanel Kabala
11:00
Um just you know provide me with a decision or provide
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Netanel Kabala
11:03
me with a score and I take it from there.
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Netanel Kabala
11:06
Depends on the companies or the the the customer's maturity
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Netanel Kabala
11:10
level and uh what they already have uh in place.
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Netanel Kabala
11:13
Today when I speak to uh potential customers they're uh
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Netanel Kabala
11:17
looking more at network effects and network data.
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Netanel Kabala
11:20
That's something that has become very important like I'm
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Netanel Kabala
11:24
using this vendor because I I I don't have the I can zoom
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Netanel Kabala
11:28
out and see where this customer has been before.
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Netanel Kabala
11:31
Uh they came to to me, uh for things like device intelligence
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Netanel Kabala
11:35
for very uh specific use cases that uh are now more I would
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Netanel Kabala
11:39
more interesting or more important to to customers.
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Netanel Kabala
11:42
Especially the you know the midsized and and large customers.
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Netanel Kabala
11:46
Uh and I think that still similar to the smaller ones,
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Netanel Kabala
11:50
like small customers still use vendors in very much the
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Netanel Kabala
11:54
same way it has happened over the last few years.
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Netanel Kabala
11:57
They still want this assurance, they still want the expertise,
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Netanel Kabala
12:01
they still want the the the the capabilities that they offer.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
12:05
But the the bigger they are, the harder they look at which
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Netanel Kabala
12:09
specific uh end points could actually bring me value.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:48
I agree with everything that you said.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:50
Um but you you kind of like relate uh uh mainly to the backend
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:54
capabilities, the technological or analytical capabilities that vendors offer.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:59
But uh some of what vendors give you as a as a as
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:03
a team as a practitioner team is uh is just UI.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:06
And if you look at vendors and how like the more legacy
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:09
one started, um you see a pure SaaS UI plays, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:13
Uh a cockpit to allow you to do manual review, a rule engine that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:17
allows you to uh codify your heuristics uh in a like not so uh
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:21
technical environment like an SQL or or even like hardcoded uh uh rule engine.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:27
Um how do you see these more UI elements and
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:29
how practitioner teams look at them today?
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Netanel Kabala
13:49
Um well let's separate between viewers
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Netanel Kabala
13:51
and uh actionable uh products. Okay.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
13:53
So I think that viewers uh uh what to refer to as a
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
13:57
cockpit or you know manual review tool, uh more and
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Netanel Kabala
14:00
more companies are starting to build their own.
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Netanel Kabala
14:03
Uh and not because it necessarily looks better or performs
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Netanel Kabala
14:07
better, but it because it's more customizable.
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Netanel Kabala
14:10
Uh many customers have expressed frustration from the fact that
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Netanel Kabala
14:15
they want to change something, and then they have to ask, and wait
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Netanel Kabala
14:19
for it to get prioritized on the vendor's end, and so on.
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Netanel Kabala
14:23
So um and it's much easier to to codify using uh bite coding
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Netanel Kabala
14:27
or you know the coding is it's kind of obsolete on its own.
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Netanel Kabala
14:31
I think that it's actual coding these days.
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Netanel Kabala
14:34
Um So I I so so this is something that companies have
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Netanel Kabala
14:37
have already moved to sometimes it's a mess.
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Netanel Kabala
14:40
Like you know different team members have different
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
14:43
viewers, each one changing tweaking their own.
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Netanel Kabala
14:46
It's not necessarily a good thing it makes it harder to onboard
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Netanel Kabala
14:51
new members, uh to share results, to work together.
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Netanel Kabala
14:54
But um it is the direction that everyone one is going.
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Netanel Kabala
14:58
To things like rule engines for example are much more uh difficult.
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Netanel Kabala
15:02
I would say sometimes they're stuck deep within legacy systems.
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Netanel Kabala
15:06
Uh and I do think that companies need to untangle
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Netanel Kabala
15:10
it and eventually build their own.
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Netanel Kabala
15:12
Like at Simplex we had our own Python based rule
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
15:15
engine from the get-go uh 12 years ago, so.
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Netanel Kabala
15:18
But but it proved to be pivotal because then you can
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Netanel Kabala
15:21
be much more flexible and build different strategies
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Netanel Kabala
15:25
and build auto switches that uh can uh switch between
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Netanel Kabala
15:28
different strategies on certain uh conditions.
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Netanel Kabala
15:31
And uh uh you know the sky the sky is the limit.
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Netanel Kabala
15:35
So uh, there I don't see uh the same movement yet.
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Netanel Kabala
15:38
I think it usually it it is perceived as part of the system,
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Netanel Kabala
15:42
for practitioners, unless the company you know as a as a
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Netanel Kabala
15:46
overall strategy decides to overhaul the the system.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
15:49
And uh the the entire thing and then uh the engineering team will
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
15:54
will actually uh will lean towards a proprietary solution.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
16:50
Yeah, I think it's an interesting point because
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
16:53
like I I I I like how you separate it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
16:55
Like viewers, Yeah, I mean basically you just pull
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
16:58
data from a data mart and you present it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:01
But a rule engine more than it is a UI like tool or UI uh uh product.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:06
It's a you know it's it's a it's a backend engineering module that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:10
needs to be real time, needs to be like high availability, needs to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:15
like know how to access the data schema in a in an efficient way.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:19
Uh needs testing and simulation capabilities.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:22
Um and probably needs also to interface with a lot of other systems
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:26
as well, including the models the viewers themselves.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:30
So yeah I I I I I get what you were saying and I also
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:34
I I like the the distinction that you made.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:36
Uh that that definitely clarifies uh the RNRs.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:39
Um I'm I'm I'm asking myself, like I don't
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:42
know how much uh how much you say it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:45
But when practitioners are thinking about
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:47
building, where do teams usually go?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:50
Uh is it more to replace current capabilities that they are
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:54
you know receiving at the moment uh from their vendors,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
17:57
or could receive from a vendor if they if they buy it?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
18:01
Or is it more to cover some gaps that vendors just never gotten to?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
18:06
Uh that or maybe because they couldn't.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
18:08
Like is it new capabilities that they never had, um or
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
18:12
is it really to replace capabilities from vendors?
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Netanel Kabala
18:36
I could say unfortunately uh companies
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Netanel Kabala
18:38
are starting with the manual task.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
18:40
Uh and how they can automate uh whatever specialists
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Netanel Kabala
18:44
or analysts have done in the past.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
18:46
Uh so you might call it uh new capabilities because it it wasn't
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Netanel Kabala
18:50
possible to automate some of these uh things in the past.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
18:54
But I think that uh
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
19:01
Can you give an example just so so like what
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
19:03
do you mean by an analytical process?
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Netanel Kabala
19:06
I mean uh uh reviewing a payment um going and you
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Netanel Kabala
19:09
know logging into different data sources.
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Netanel Kabala
19:12
Or you know things that need pulling different
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Netanel Kabala
19:15
uh files, screenshots, whatever.
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Netanel Kabala
19:17
Um in order to make a decision or to
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
19:19
to document a decision or audit.
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Netanel Kabala
19:21
So that's something that has already gone agentic to some extent.
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Netanel Kabala
19:26
Um, I treat it as new capabilities because it hadn't added a new
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
19:30
layer of data, but it allowed us to automate this layer of data.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
19:48
Mhm.
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Netanel Kabala
19:50
Uh other than that, I see many companies don't necessarily want
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Netanel Kabala
19:54
to replace vendors, whether they're afraid to do so or they
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
19:58
need these uh unique uh capabilities that we've discussed,
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Netanel Kabala
20:02
like network data, or you know data is is king today.
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Netanel Kabala
20:05
Uh but in terms of uh algorithms, maybe
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:08
I can build a better one for me.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:10
Not necessarily a better one than the vendor's algorithm,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:14
but maybe it suited it suits my business,
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Netanel Kabala
20:16
my way of thought, my uh risk appetite.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:19
So uh most of the companies try to blend in right now.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:22
Try to see okay maybe I have different segments
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:26
or pockets where I don't need this the vendor.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:29
The classic example is returning users.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:31
Like I already know something about this user.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:34
I have to verify, it's not account take over, but maybe
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:38
I can do it, maybe I can do it in another way, maybe
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:42
with another vendor with different economics.
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Netanel Kabala
20:45
Uh but the blanket solution is already starting
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
20:48
to you know to unravel at this point.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:15
I like this example and and the algorithms
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:17
um is definitely a juicy point.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:19
Because this is like a very want to believe a very kind of like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:24
core rudimentary capability that everybody can relate to.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:27
When you buy a rule engine from a vendor, that's what you buy.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:32
You you buy a rule engine, you don't buy the rules, you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:35
don't buy the capability for producing your rules.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:39
Now, you might, I don't know, some vendors might give you like managed
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:43
services or you might have in-house uh an in-house team that does
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:48
it or uh a consultant a consultant team that does that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:51
But the point is that the the product
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:54
that you buy, is the engine itself.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
21:56
And researching rules, monitoring rules, fixing, tweaking,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:00
deprecating rules, all of these are processes um that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:03
a require expertise, b require access to data.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:06
But I'm trying to understand whether teams would
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:10
that be the next thing that they go after?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:12
Like being able to conduct these analytical processes,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:16
inhouse, because no one is offering them.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:19
Or would they really go after replacing the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
22:22
the kind of like the software itself?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:34
I think that most if not all practitioners today are being
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:37
assisted by AI to make these uh uh these decisions or
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:41
these processes, even if it's an offline process.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:44
Like consulting with my favorite uh chat uh and
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:47
coming back with the the rule syntax or the decision
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:51
or the policy or the tweak or whatever.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:53
Um so the market is kind of ready for it.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
22:56
Um I think that there's a tension for for employees between
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:00
uh building these uh the systems that uh replace them rather
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:04
than being assisted by them and getting time back.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:07
So I don't see a rush to completely replace
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:10
uh this decisioning system. That's the truth.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:13
But but I would say that what what I do see happen is
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:17
uh what we see happen everywhere, which is AI slop.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:20
Um and it already happens in fraud and risk as well.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:24
Uh multiple rules, tons of them that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:26
you couldn't produce in the past.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:28
Tons of models which was unheard of in the past.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:31
Like uh you see companies that you know that have a
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:35
new fraud problem, and suddenly 20 new models uh are
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:38
built overnight and and released to production.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:41
Uh which creates latency problems, which most aren't aware of.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:46
Like vendors take so much time uh trying to optimize this
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:49
and uh that's something that is usually not on the practitioners
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
23:54
or the data uh data scientists uh radar at all.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
24:32
Yeah, I mean also monitoring drift across 20 models is a
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
24:35
different task than doing it for one to three models.
Ad Break
24:40
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Now, back to the video.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:12
This is really like where I'm where my head
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:14
is at in the last couple of weeks.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:17
Uh both because we had um you know a lot of uh PR.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:20
Or no I don't want to call it PR because it's like it it is research
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:25
right um around foundation models for financial risk.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:28
And you know we've seen I mean of course at Sardine we
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:32
had uh we've published one Revolute published a very interesting
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:36
uh research uh Plaid had um released one.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:39
Uh I'm sure that I'm forgetting a couple of others.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:42
Uh but I I would say these are like the three kind
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:45
of like main cases that that come to my mind.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:48
And one of the things that I'm like I'm thinking about is
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:52
that to me one of the main things that foundation models do,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
25:56
and I think maybe how they can be a threat to vendors, is
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:00
the fact that they replace the feature layer right.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:03
I mean the the advantage of vendors uh traditionally
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:07
was that they are specialists.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:09
They they are experts in fraud prevention.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:12
And that spec specialization doesn't necessarily
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:15
um manifest as better algorithms.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:17
It manifests as better data and better data means
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:20
better features in how you calculate velocity.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:23
You know the simplest example uh in how you do uh IP piercing,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:28
in how you do device ID, but also like how do you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:31
how do you um look at identity cohesiveness.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:34
How do you look at you know boguseness, um or synthetic ID.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:38
So there are a lot of like features like that are
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:41
very complex and that need a lot of research.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:44
And so far they have been handcrafted by specialists
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:47
mostly on the vendor side mostly not only.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:50
Now you have foundation models that build features for free.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:54
Uh no one understands what they mean, but
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:57
they are there and they are free.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
26:59
Um so is that like are we going to see foundation models replacing,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
27:04
not vendors, but maybe the need or the let's say the the gap.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
27:08
Uh maybe bridging the gap in terms of uh SME, or
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
27:11
kind of like fraud knowledge domain knowledge, that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
27:14
sometimes practitioner uh teams don't have.
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Netanel Kabala
27:57
That's a great question.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
27:58
I remember that two years ago we discussed uh whether
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
28:02
LLMs could uh replace fraud models entirely.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
28:06
Yes. And by the way I must say you you reminded me this conversation.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
28:09
You, I must say that you said I don't know if the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
28:12
scoring part but probably the features part.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
28:14
And I said yeah I don't know what you mean by that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
28:17
But two years later now I know what you mean by that. Oh yeah,
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Netanel Kabala
28:21
I think that actually the features layer was replaced not by uh
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Netanel Kabala
28:25
transaction foundation models necessarily, but by standard LLMs.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
28:29
Like if you go and ask an LLM this is my data set which features
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Netanel Kabala
28:33
I should derive from, you'll have I I dare say 80% of the value
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Netanel Kabala
28:37
that would be created by a team of professionals these days.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
28:41
And uh I think that in a year or so, the some models would
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
28:45
be powerful enough to provide 95% of the value.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
28:48
Um which makes it a question of economics at this point.
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Netanel Kabala
28:52
And how you actually you know get the data engineer these
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Netanel Kabala
28:56
features but that's that's easier, that's even cheaper.
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Netanel Kabala
29:00
Um I think that the value of foundation models in the space is
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
29:04
not necessarily that they saved the feature engineering, but
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Netanel Kabala
29:08
it's basically a highly advanced anomaly detection engine.
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Netanel Kabala
29:12
The ones the one that we always dreamed of.
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Netanel Kabala
29:15
It's uh we always tried, and I'm sure you tried it in
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Netanel Kabala
29:18
the past in your company as well, to to bring unsupervised
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Netanel Kabala
29:22
learning to the level of supervised learning.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
29:43
Yes. Yes.
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Netanel Kabala
29:44
Uh and uh now it's almost doable, if you have enough data.
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Netanel Kabala
29:47
Um uh whether this new transaction without any other context
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Netanel Kabala
29:51
or labels, makes sense within uh uh this time series.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
29:55
Uh so I I would say that's the the real value.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
30:08
Yeah.
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Netanel Kabala
30:09
Um I don't know where it will go.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:11
I I I think that the real uh uh promise, or threat
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:14
depends on which side of the fence you're on,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:17
is the new uh semideterministic models like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
30:25
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That was my next point. Yes. Okay. Go go go.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
30:29
Yeah. Yeah. Please.
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Netanel Kabala
30:31
That's, I, when we had the discussion on whether LLMs could replace
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:35
fraud models, this is the was this was the missing piece.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:39
Um a model that is actually um dedicated to a decision, uh that is
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Netanel Kabala
30:43
forced to make a decision at the end but uses an LLM to to make
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Netanel Kabala
30:47
judgment, uh will probably at some point will be uh the new XG
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:52
boost or the new uh gold standard for uh fraud models I would say.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
30:56
That's uh imagine that you can, you know we grew
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Netanel Kabala
30:59
up on the fraud sciences story based approach.
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Netanel Kabala
31:02
Uh and then we kind of moved from it as a industry,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
31:06
but maybe we'll go back to stories.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:26
Well I I think I think we can spend like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:28
three hours discussing this topic.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:30
Uh because there there are so many aspects to it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:34
Um, I'll say first regarding foundation models,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:37
I I I I I completely agree with what you say.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:40
I'll just say that the anomaly detection part is re like as far as I've
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:45
seen so far, Um, and we've seen it again both in the Sardine research,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:49
in Revolute research, and it in Plaid's research, it's an anomaly
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:54
detection within a known entity, an entity that I have history on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
31:58
Um and whether the new event, you know, makes sense is consistent
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:02
uh with how this entity usually acts and behaves.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:06
I haven't seen it yet on, you know, like I I would
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:09
call it like horizontal horizontal data problems.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:12
Um an acquirer, right, or a merchant that doesn't
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:15
necessarily have accounts, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:18
So, we just see users coming in and and transacting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:21
And then anomaly detection would be much more not on how a single user
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:26
uh acts, but how you know like a cluster of users uh that might be
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:30
relatively small within the context of my volume, how they behave.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:35
Uh but yeah I I I definitely agree with your with your
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:38
point that for the first use case, uh foundation models
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:42
are extremely powerful, extremely powerful.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:45
As as as we go to the kind of like decision models right,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:49
that's uh that's an interesting naming convention, um I think
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:53
what is interesting for me is not only the fact that they
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
32:56
are much more fit uh like fit for purpose here.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:00
And and this is not only their accuracy,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:02
this is also the latency, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:04
And the cost, uh which to me were always kind
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:07
of like the the the real pain points, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:10
Even with foundation models, foundation models
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:13
don't do the scoring themselves.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:15
And a lot of what you want to do there needs to happen offline
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:20
because you don't necessarily you can't necessarily
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:23
run all of these anomaly detection in real time.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:26
And the session models solve all of that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:29
But I think what came to my mind in the last week or so
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:33
is that actually the most powerful thing that decision
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:36
models give you, is that anyone can roll them out.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:40
You don't need to have a data science team.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:42
You don't need to have a data science infrastructure to run
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
33:46
like all of these simulations and all of this data.
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Netanel Kabala
34:01
I'm not sure you you even need data the training data. I mean,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:05
You can open a a a shop on Shopify tomorrow.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:07
And as a as as a as the seller, like as a single person
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:11
seller, you can deploy a pretty decent real time fraud
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:15
model uh that doesn't cost you almost anything.
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Netanel Kabala
34:30
Yes
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:31
It's it's it's pretty it's pretty insane.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:33
So I'm like I'm thinking what, yes vendors would probably
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:37
be the like first ones to capitalize on this.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:40
But I'm trying to think like a year or
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:43
two ahead, how would that change?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:45
How practitioner teams, uh build internally
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
34:48
and what they buy externally.
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Netanel Kabala
34:52
In order for that to happen, it will need to
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Netanel Kabala
34:54
be assimulated by the large LLM providers.
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Netanel Kabala
34:57
And it already happens like OpenAI released something
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Netanel Kabala
35:01
very similar, a decision model of their own.
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Netanel Kabala
35:04
I assume that entropic will do the same.
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Netanel Kabala
35:06
And then when you write to ChatGPT solve my fraud
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Netanel Kabala
35:10
problem, it will probably create uh this new uh decision
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Netanel Kabala
35:13
model endpoint, and say here run this.
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Netanel Kabala
35:16
Uh or it's already baked into your app.
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Netanel Kabala
35:18
Um and I think that will happen s sooner rather than later.
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Netanel Kabala
35:22
And then it depends what you fill it with.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
35:25
Uh and to my earlier point, uh vendors are um you know it
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Netanel Kabala
35:29
will crystallize the importance of external data points.
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Netanel Kabala
35:33
Um and large uh data pools and network data.
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Netanel Kabala
35:36
Um it will also uh require more feature stores of the sort.
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Netanel Kabala
35:40
Because um let's say that you want to include the history
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
35:43
of a you know a lengthy history of a merchant or a customer
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
35:47
within these models, uh that obviously the SLA will
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
35:51
be affected, or it will be just too many tokens.
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Netanel Kabala
35:54
Uh so the economics won't work.
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Netanel Kabala
35:56
So you need to pre-calculate uh like we're
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
35:59
doing for the past two decades.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:34
Yes.
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Netanel Kabala
36:35
Uh but in in a more efficient and um I would say LLM friendly way.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:41
I uh yeah I I I tend to agree.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:43
Maybe I I would say that uh you know maybe maybe I was
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:46
very, it sounded uh very uh kind of like um deterministic,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:50
uh and and and convinced what I said about Jev.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:53
It's indeed the experience that I've uh seen, um you know were
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
36:57
based on data that you know like enriched data right.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:01
Um you don't necessarily need to train it right so you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:04
don't need like the like millions of consortium rows.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:08
Um but you like I think the feature, uh sorry the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:11
features themselves, like basically being able to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:14
extend uh the data that you have per event.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:17
That is probably that that would become the the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
37:20
main point here, the main performance driver.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
37:36
But but I would al also say that um it's it's still not enough.
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Netanel Kabala
37:40
It might might be enough for this uh Shopify uh merchant.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
37:44
But for more more complex uh multi-party um businesses,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
37:47
uh decisioning is still a challenge.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
37:50
Let's say you have a perfect decision for every merchant,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
37:53
every transaction, every uh onboarding. Uh what do you do with it?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
37:58
Uh it's the same of, you know, getting the ingredients to
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:02
a chef's meal and trying to cooking it on your own.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:05
You won't get get the same uh results
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:07
even if you have AI assisting you.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:25
Yes.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:25
Uh on the side. So
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:27
What what what why do you think that's the case?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:30
Like what what would the chef, in this example,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:33
uh have uh that that you wouldn't necessarily?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:36
Is it the interoperability between like the different
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
38:39
components of the of the platform? How like what is it?
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Netanel Kabala
38:44
The know how of what to do in case things go unexpectedly.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:47
Um um that's the to to to chef's point.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:50
What happens if it boils a minute before it's supposed to boil?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:54
What do I do?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:55
What if I uh to to to uh compare our uh industry uh what do I do
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
38:59
if the charge back rate is higher than expected this month?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:03
What do I do if I have a fraud attack that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:06
wasn't expected in the simulation?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:08
Because I I it's the first to to the point of you know building
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:13
a fraud prevention system without any expertise.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:16
This is the first time I've ever experienced it.
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Netanel Kabala
39:19
What do I do with it?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:20
Um, how do I perform um stepups or challenges?
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Netanel Kabala
39:24
Um, how do I retrain? How do I monitor drift?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:27
Uh, how do I ultimately make a decision
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:29
that makes sense for my business?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:31
I think that's the next uh phase that everyone that tries
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:35
to uh build these uh decision models or computation models
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
39:39
depends of the size will have to go through.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:09
So I I I tend to agree that I think there are two elements here, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:13
One is is just the expertise itself, and that is probably something
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:18
that vendors would anyways not be able to uh to impart on you.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:22
Uh but one of that is just you know generally
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:25
speaking like a high engineering bar. Uh and to make sure that, Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:29
And and and I think what vendors have here that you as a practitioner
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:34
would never have, they they have a portfolio of clients.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:38
They've seen a lot of things go wrong uh both mechanically,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:42
like technically in the system, but also uh in terms of
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:45
you know like weird fraud patterns and and so on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:49
And so they probably already smoothed out a lot of wrinkles in
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:53
their system that it will take you like years of bumping into
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
40:57
them again again until you understand, um a what you need to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:01
do and b that you also like you get the uh the resource.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:05
Because usually these things are not like uh easy to fix.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:08
It's usually like as I said it's like there's a high standard
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:12
engineering effort that is required and it's not something that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
41:17
you can like easily easily conduct on your own many times.
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Netanel Kabala
41:30
Um definitely.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:31
Um you know to be the devil's advocate, at some point
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:34
LLM will absorb some of it and we'll figure it out.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:37
I think that we're, we don't want to sound
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:40
like uh designers from two years ago.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:43
That said no that LLM can do my my job.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:45
So I I I do think I I do want to be
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:48
you know uh transparent about it.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:50
But yeah, I think that eventually uh you understand your business.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:54
Even if it's you know your Claude agent that understands your
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
41:58
business at some point and have the contact has the context.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
42:02
But um but it means that you can't uh
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
42:05
take a one-size-fits-all solution.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
42:07
You need to figure out uh your path and how you do things.
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Netanel Kabala
42:11
And u whether it will work in terms
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
42:13
of latency or not that we'll see.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:37
Yeah, I agree.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:38
So we mentioned uh different use cases, different components,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:42
different uh views on each component. Are we looking at the UI?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:46
Are we looking at the analytical components?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:49
Are we looking at the uh the software itself and the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:52
architecture like from a technical perspective?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:55
Let's try and kind of like now package it to a more
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
42:59
coherent um I don't want to say guidelines, because
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:02
I I don't think that we can be pres prescriptive.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:05
Uh I mean we want to be prescriptive but I
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:08
think I think it's too early to do that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:11
But how do you suggest teams today, uh that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:14
are thinking about building more.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:16
I think everybody is building already,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:18
they're thinking about building more.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:21
What would be In your mind, the first few areas?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:24
You would say to them, look, you you want to probably look
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
43:28
uh around these areas, and maybe where not to look at.
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Netanel Kabala
43:41
One thing that we constantly see is uh um
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
43:43
everything related to segmentation.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
43:46
Um I think uh many many of the many customers
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
43:49
miss the importance of segmentation.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
43:51
And the first thing I would advise them is try to
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
43:54
think of the different segments that behave completely
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
43:58
uh differently within your uh system.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:00
The obvious example is new versus returning user,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:04
or any tenure based uh uh segmentation.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:06
But there are so many of them you know. Geo products, so on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:26
Payment methods, business versus uh consumer accounts.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
44:29
Yeah there there are so many yeah
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:31
Try to find pockets that are either underperforming, or are
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:34
uh the economics don't work as well as in other segments.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:38
And try to think of, okay what can I do here.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:41
Uh um maybe I can not necessarily build it in house, but maybe
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:45
change uh something maybe uh experiment with other vendors, with
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:50
AI, with both, with uh custom solutions, with hiring someone, whatever.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:54
But that's something that many are are missing.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
44:57
I would also uh suggest to look at uh um how pivotal
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:01
is risk and fraud for your business. Let's say you're a merchant.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:05
Fraud is very painful.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:07
And for an e-commerce merchant, it could determine the fate of the
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:11
business, but it's it's still a sub function, I would say.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:15
Uh the growth usually comes from other places.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:18
And for all these table stakes you have to take care
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:22
of it and increase the approval rate, and so on.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:25
That opposed to other businesses for example fintechs uh
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:29
that fraud and risk are are very uh core uh functions.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:32
Um and if you're offloading a core function Ask
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:35
yourself, is this the right thing to do?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:38
Maybe it is, maybe it's not, maybe
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:40
it's right for some of the cases.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:42
And the best way to do it practically is to look at the road map
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Netanel Kabala
45:47
from the last 6 months or 12 months, and ask yourself how many
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:51
things were either delayed or deprioritized because it would
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:55
be too difficult to perform given our current risk setup.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
45:59
You have to have this flexibility as
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
46:01
a as a business in order to grow.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
46:48
And and so for for for such cases for such businesses,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
46:51
you would suggest to build more or to buy more?
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Netanel Kabala
46:58
Today, to build more. Definitely.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:00
Uh to build the foundations uh whatever it is you
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:03
you offloaded uh to a vendor in the past.
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Netanel Kabala
47:06
Try to think of the atomic units of the decision
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Netanel Kabala
47:09
that needs to be made, and whether you can produce
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:12
these atomic units yourselves or buy them.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:15
Uh and build everything around it.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:17
And have full flexibility, more complexity definitely,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:21
u but assuming that we see the trajectory of AI uh for
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:25
coding and where it's headed, assuming you can handle
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:28
it with roughly the same headcount in the future.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:31
Uh increase the complexity because it will provide you
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:35
more flexibility, more growth opportunities uh uh and
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
47:38
you can cater the business needs uh much better.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:01
What do you what do you, from a team size or not team size but from
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:05
a team perspective, whether it's the size whether it is the domain
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:09
expertise whether it is the talent the skill set that you have.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:14
What do you think are the prerequisites for a team to
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:17
actually start building in this you know this space?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:21
Which is very you know it is very demanding uh both
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:24
technically and from a from uh theme perspective.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:27
Um what are the prerequisites?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:29
What like how should a leader look at their team and how should
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
48:33
they know if they are ready to start building themselves?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
48:48
Most of the risk leaders that I know have uh
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
48:50
very high trust in their uh in their team.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
48:53
Uh and I know it's it's sometimes a blind spot, but I would
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
48:57
actually advise to look elsewhere to look at the organization and
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:01
ask yourself, do does the organization have the the proper
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:05
capabilities and expertise to help me build what I want to be?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:09
Uh uh what about the product engineering?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:12
Uh will the uh sea level uh exact uh uh
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:15
support what I I want to achieve here?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:17
Uh obviously it will cost more in the beginning,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:21
until we reach uh economic benefit.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:23
Uh does the the organization have the tolerance to do it?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:27
Um second thing I would say, um access to risk talent.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:30
Um even though AI allows us to do uh more with less, we would still
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:35
need these core members to to actually uh make it happen.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:39
So, it's not only and assuming we're looking for years
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:42
ahead, it's not only who I have right now, but can
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:45
I get uh uh the right people continuously?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:48
Uh can I fill up the ranks?
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:50
Um it depends on location, on the size of the company,
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:54
on the industry that you're operating in.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:56
Um um usually for for companies that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
49:59
don't work remote, location is key.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
50:01
Uh that's something that I hear from from many
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:44
Um super interesting.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:45
Yeah, I you said some uh some you got some very good points there.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:49
Uh but since we are uh rounding up, and coming to the takeaways uh
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:54
section, I I I I I want to kind of like go go at it uh in order.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
50:58
Uh I'll say first Netanel, super interesting conversation.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:02
I think that you know a lot of it is very uh how
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:05
should I say, uh very exploratory in nature.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:08
And you know I think that two years ago when AI started
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:12
to come out, I was much more or I'd say differently.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:15
I was much less uh um imaginative uh in how I saw the future.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:19
And I try today not to fall into the same into the same trap.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:23
Um because things are changing, and it's very very hard to keep
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:27
up with the with the changes, and it's very very hard to you
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:31
know like think about how the future might be in two years uh
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:36
when we don't know how it would look like in two months.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:39
Um but I think there are a few things that uh I really liked um in in
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:44
what you said that already kind of like present a couple of trends here.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:49
Um, I'll start by saying that, you know, we've opened
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:52
the conversation with a question of, you know,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:55
whether we will need vendors in the future.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
51:58
And if you expected a yes or no answer, then, you know,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:02
you probably didn't uh listen to my previous podcast
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:05
or ever uh read what I what I'm usually writing.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:08
I think reality is a bit more complex than that.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:12
Um, and so of course the the answer is no, not a yes or a no.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:16
It's more about how the relationship between
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:19
uh vendors and businesses uh would change.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:21
Uh I think it also you know going to one of your last points right
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:26
now is, um that the change and the relationship would probably also
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:30
look different, uh dependent on um in which industry you work.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:34
But I would say I think one of the first points that you touched upon
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:39
is the shift between who's considered to be the data provider,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:43
and who's considered to be the uh the main platform builder.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:47
And while I am not sure that in two years time we
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:50
would not see any vendor platforms and we would see
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:54
only kind of like in-house built platforms.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:57
I actually don't think that's the case.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
52:59
I think that it would be a bit more balanced.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:02
Uh but I think uh a lot of the uh kind of like core engineering
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:07
uh components that need like a lot of reliability, uh especially
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:11
the real-time ones, I think you know they the mostly
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:14
vendors would still end up servicing these.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:17
But still the the uh the balance between who's a data provider
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:21
and who actually builds part of the platform it would change.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:25
And it would be uh I I I think vendors would be seen more and more as
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:30
data providers, uh rather than um you know like capability enablers.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:34
Um there would be core capabilities that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:37
they would probably forever enable.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:39
Uh but a lot of other capabilities would be um would
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:43
be relegated to to the to the to the business side.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:46
Um also I I I think another point that you touched on,
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Chen Zamir
53:50
and I think this will also be very interesting to see
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Chen Zamir
53:53
how it would how it would uh develop, is you know when
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
53:57
we say data provider what data do we mean by that?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:00
And I think there are two dimensions to that that that you mentioned.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:05
One is you know the features themselves, and is it ever
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Chen Zamir
54:09
going to be replaced by for example foundation models. Yes or no.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:13
On one hand it's very cheap on the other hand how should
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Chen Zamir
54:17
you use uh like foundation model uh features in rules.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:20
Uh like a human cannot understand them.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:23
Or how would you use these features in in manual review?
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Chen Zamir
54:27
Um even an agent cannot really make sense of them, like an AI agent.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:31
Um so I think this would be like this would be very
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54:35
interesting to see how that would develop.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:37
Uh on the flip side there's also the the breadth
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54:41
of the data, uh like the consortium data.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
54:43
Um But uh like h the all the patterns and all the intelligence that
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54:48
you get from um outside of your own little box as a as a business.
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Chen Zamir
54:52
And I think this is something that unless you're like incredibly
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Chen Zamir
54:56
big, unless you're like top 10 in your in your uh vertical,
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Chen Zamir
55:00
um you're likely to see much less data and patterns
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Chen Zamir
55:04
um than you know most vendors out there.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
55:06
Um, so I I really like how yeah, how how you how you
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55:10
kind of like phrase the the data part there.
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Chen Zamir
55:13
When it comes to what to build, Um, so yeah, of course, I mean,
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55:17
if it's a core function, you want to invest more in that.
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Chen Zamir
55:21
So you it's not only about, you know, building it.
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Chen Zamir
55:24
It's also because building is like the easy part. It's the maintenance.
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Chen Zamir
55:29
It's, you know, it's like servicing uh all of that.
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Chen Zamir
55:32
Um, and that's, you know, something that hopefully,
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55:36
uh, isn't something that your risk team is doing.
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Chen Zamir
55:39
Um, but I think what I like the point that you made that I really
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55:43
liked, because I absolutely agree with, is that where you want to
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55:48
focus on in terms of building is not necessarily the your biggest
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Chen Zamir
55:52
pain point or your biggest kind of like uh loss driver.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
55:56
But it is really to look at your population as segments and understands
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56:00
understand which ones are underserved by your vendor.
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Chen Zamir
56:04
And in many cases, especially if you're a bigger business,
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56:08
you probably have a very particular segment that is very
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56:12
unique to you and how you run your specific business.
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Chen Zamir
56:15
And that means that it will have a very particular behavior.
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56:19
Uh both for the good users and the bad users.
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Chen Zamir
56:22
And also a very particular data signature.
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Chen Zamir
56:25
Uh and this is something that vendors will, you know
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56:28
these are all like vendors would never solve.
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Chen Zamir
56:31
And able to solve it on your own now is maybe a more important
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56:35
thing than servicing you know like a more standard use case,
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Chen Zamir
56:39
like stolen credit cards, that you know there are enough
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56:43
vendors that know how to solve stolen credit cards.
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Chen Zamir
56:47
Is that how you want to spend your time and effort? Right.
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Chen Zamir
56:50
Um also by the way let's let's take it like one one step
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56:54
below that in terms of you know rudimentary use cases.
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Chen Zamir
56:58
Sanction screening, or KYC, is that something
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57:01
that you want now to build?
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Chen Zamir
57:03
Uh because that's that is very generic and kind of like
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57:06
very table stakes and and and and you you can like easily
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57:10
buy it right and you can also easily build it.
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57:13
And that's that is I think the trap that
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57:16
you want to kind of like avoid.
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Chen Zamir
57:18
And that's why I really like the fact that you kind of
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57:21
like you talked about how to recognize or identify these
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57:25
niches that are unique to you and are understood.
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Chen Zamir
57:28
And lastly, I think we also talked a bit about prerequisites and how
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57:33
how do you know whether you're ready to to to build uh these
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57:37
components, especially these more advanced complex whatever you want to call them.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
57:42
Um and from a team perspective, and I think the
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57:46
team is the only thing that matters here.
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57:48
Uh it really it really is the only thing that matters.
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57:52
I to, like I I really liked what you said and that the fact that most
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57:57
leaders and I think I think it's not only about risk leaders.
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58:01
Most leaders are very confident maybe even overconfident about
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58:05
their own uh capabilities and their own team's capabilities.
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58:09
Uh and what they fail to see in such uh like efforts
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58:12
in like when you when you take such a big commitment
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58:16
is that it is never about your team only.
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58:18
Um and especially when it comes down to delivering code, in the end.
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Chen Zamir
58:23
Uh and and that's something that you know came up in my conversation
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58:27
with Lalitha in my conversation with uh Brian Davis.
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58:31
Um I I think the biggest the biggest uh pitfall that I see teams uh you
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58:36
know fall into, is they start building hectically without a road map.
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58:40
But even worse, without any alignment
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58:43
with the organization around them.
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58:45
How they support their uh how they support them building it, but even
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58:50
more importantly, how they support them in maintaining it afterwards.
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Chen Zamir
58:54
Uh if your analyst is now building something that's
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58:58
great and it will take them you know a week.
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Chen Zamir
59:01
Um but if they constantly maintain it and fix bugs, and you know like
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59:05
also like take in new uh requirements and they are now the product
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59:10
manager and the devops engineer and the backend engineer and the
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59:14
UX engineer, all in one they are not an analyst anymore.
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Chen Zamir
59:18
And this is this is a trap that I see a lot of teams uh fall into.
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Chen Zamir
59:22
And what happens by the way is not really that the analysts would stop
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59:27
doing their job, it's that they would stop maintaining their project.
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59:31
Um, and and I think this is kind of like your
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59:34
point is like super super important here.
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59:37
And on top of that, of course, if you need all of this support,
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59:41
the first thing that you need is actually leadership
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59:45
buy in and to make sure that you actually get it.
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59:48
And I think that getting this buy in is much more difficult and
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59:52
requires a different skill set than erecting a POC in two days.
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59:56
And the the build trap that we see uh in
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59:59
AI doesn't uh doesn't skip risk teams.
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60:01
And I think that a lot of the teams that I see try
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60:05
to avoid uh the hard part, which is the the sell.
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60:08
The internal sell, uh the convincing, uh the alignment, uh
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60:12
both upwards and and horizontally, believing that if they
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60:16
just build it um it will it will just happen and they would
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60:20
show the the proof and and they will get what they.
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60:23
And usually that's not the case. Uh many times.
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60:26
Yeah, Netanel, Uh super interesting.
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60:29
I uh I would watch this episode two years from now,
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60:32
uh just for the you know laughs and giggles.
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Chen Zamir
60:35
Uh I'm sure I'm sure I would uh find myself very naive uh in its time.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
62:22
I would just look at how much gray hair I had back then and now.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
62:26
I just want to say that you know to to summarize uh
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
62:29
fraud prevention has been an area where machine learning
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Netanel Kabala
62:33
was, you know we were a very early adopters.
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
62:36
Because so complex so much data, these are the same qualities that
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
62:40
uh cause it to be one of the uh laggards in AI adoption.
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Netanel Kabala
62:44
Um but I do think that we will catch up with uh the
A man with salt-and-pepper hair and a beard, wearing a dark sweater, smiles gently against a white background.
Netanel Kabala
62:47
other use cases that are already adopting AI more.
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Netanel Kabala
62:51
Um and we need to see how we do it uh in
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Netanel Kabala
62:53
a in an efficient and smart manner.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
63:08
Yeah.
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Chen Zamir
63:09
And I must say I mean I already said a year ago nobody
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63:12
talked about building like AI powered capabilities.
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63:16
People were talking about deep fakes and uh whatever, right?
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63:20
Um and now I see the conversation shifting and I
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63:23
see teams are in a very different mind space.
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Chen Zamir
63:26
So I I already see it uh and I'm glad for it.
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Chen Zamir
63:29
Uh because that was what was interesting for me all all along. Yeah.
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Chen Zamir
63:33
Anyway, Netanel, uh really appreciate you joining the pod today.
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Chen Zamir
63:38
Really appreciating having this conversation.
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Chen Zamir
63:41
Uh um no, we we finished with a lot more question marks than ex
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63:45
exclamation marks, but I think that's uh you know, the topic warrants it.
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Chen Zamir
63:50
So, I'm I'm I'm not uh I'm not upset about it.
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Chen Zamir
63:53
Uh yeah, I'll I'll say thank you one more time,
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Chen Zamir
63:56
and I'll see you all next Saturday.