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The Saturday Fraud Strategist

Foundation Models in Fraud Explained: The Tech Behind ChatGPT, Applied to Fraud

13 min

Foundation models in fraud are on every conference agenda this year, and I keep hearing the same question. Is this the real thing or the next buzzword? When I landed at Money20/20 Vegas, I wanted to ask someone who builds with them every day.

Pedro Sanzovo works on identity and fraud products, and has been in fraud his whole career. He started at Palantir, built a fraud company for merchants in Brazil, and sold it to Signifyd, where he led product work on machine learning models. Six months ago he joined Plaid.

We kept this one short and practical. What is a foundation model, and how is it different from the models most of us run today? Where does it beat XGBoost, and where does it hit the same walls? And what do you do with an embedding when your team writes rules? Pedro had some good answers, and a few things I think you’ll want to hear.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

  • What a foundation model is, and how transformer models differ from the chained rules and XGBoost models fraud teams have used for years
  • Why legacy models depend on handcrafted features and clean supervised labels, and why that is hard for smaller companies
  • How financial data foundation models treat transactions as a sequence of events and predict what comes next
  • What Pedro means by the precision uplift of up to 34% he is seeing, and why data quality still decides the outcome
  • Why latency constraints, such as 300 milliseconds for card transactions, shape which model belongs where
  • How foundation model explainability compares with XGBoost, and why credit and fraud face different expectations
  • Why embeddings are hard to turn into rules, and how AI agents might help

You should listen to this episode if you:

  • Lead or work with a fraud data science team and are deciding whether to explore foundation models
  • Run a smaller fraud team and struggle with labeling and feature engineering
  • Want a plain explanation of how foundation models differ from XGBoost
  • Need to weigh precision gains against latency and explainability
  • Are curious how embeddings and AI agents could work together to produce fraud rules
Episode notes & key takeaways

From rules to XGBoost to transformers

Pedro explains the history simply. For 10 to 15 years, fraud prevention ran on chained rules, and then XGBoost allowed far more data to feed small decisions with very low latency. That became the state of the art for about a decade. I pointed out that those models look a lot like rules from an algorithmic perspective, and Pedro agreed that they share the downsides. They are labor intensive to build, they need data scientists to code features, and they depend on clear supervised labels. If you label something incorrectly, it is trash in and trash out, and that is especially hard for smaller companies. The takeaway is that legacy models work, but they put the burden on people.

What changes with a foundation model

Transformer models back the LLMs we all use, and they work by treating information as a sequence and predicting the next most likely output. Pedro’s question is what happens if we do the same with financial data. Plaid and others now codify financial information as a sequence of events and create embeddings that replace handcrafted features. Teams rely less on feature engineering and need less precise labels, though some labels are still required. Pedro sees a precision uplift of up to 34%, which matches what I see in the industry. The same problem still exists, though. Poor data means poor results, and even something as simple as precise time stamps is easier said than done. These models can absorb more data, but we don’t have a limitless supply of clean data, and teams may need to start collecting data they never stored before.

Latency, precision, and explainability decide where each model fits

I asked how all of this fits with machine learning and the newer decision models. Pedro looks at target variables and constraints. The target is usually precision and recall, and the biggest constraint is latency. A card transaction decision has a budget of about 300 milliseconds or less, while onboarding or promo abuse leaves much more room. His view is that a good data science and data engineering team should explore the options, know what it is optimizing for, and let the data decide. If a model beats your precision under the same constraints, it wins. Explainability is his other concern. XGBoost never solved it fully, yet it is much easier to work with than a transformer. Credit has a regulatory mandate for explainability and fraud does not. The right answer depends on the use case.

From embeddings to rules with AI agents

I added that embeddings are a shortcut to feature engineering, but you can’t use them in rules. Pedro immediately thought of agents. His team is experimenting with feeding embeddings to agents and asking whether they can turn some of them into rules and find gaps. A human still needs to decide whether the work is good. Things are not getting simpler, and Pedro says they are getting more fun. I agree that we have more options and more toys to play with. Each one comes with tradeoffs that teams have to understand before they commit.

Final takeaway

Foundation models in fraud are the newest tool in the kit. They are not a replacement for good data. Pedro’s advice is to be clear about what you are optimizing for, respect your constraints, and let the results decide. If you are choosing between legacy models and foundation models, start with the quality of the data underneath. We’re only beginning to understand how these models change the work, and I think the best teams will treat them as a promising option to test and not a finished answer.

Not ready to stop the conversation about my, and hopefully your, favorite subject? Subscribe to The Saturday Fraud Strategist newsletter.

Connect with Pedro Sanzovo | LinkedIn
GM and Head of Fraud at Plaid

Connect with Chen Zamir | LinkedIn
Host of The Saturday Fraud Strategist
Helping fintechs build smarter fraud defenses
Co-author of “The Fraud Fighter’s AI Playbook”

Episode transcript
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:06
Hi everybody and welcome to another live special episode from
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:09
Money 20/20 Vegas with me today Pedro Sanzovo from Plaid.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:13
Welcome to the show. Lovely to meet you.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:16
So happy to be here.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:17
Excited to be here Money 20/20 and talk to you about fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:21
Yeah. So we just started the conference has just started.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:24
I want to speak to you shortly about found foundation models in fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:27
Tell us a bit about who you are, what you've been up to so far.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:31
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so I joined Plaid only six months ago.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
00:35
Okay.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:35
But I've been in the fraud space for, well my whole career really.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:39
It was started Palantir.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:41
That was my first foray into defensive technologies, let's call it.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:45
Moved back to Brazil and started my own company in the transactional
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:50
fraud space focused on the on merchants and servicing merchants,
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:54
helping prevent chargeback, uh, all that jazz.
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Pedro Sanzovo
00:57
We we ran that company for about five or six years.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:00
Uh and had a successful exit to Signified.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:03
Back in 2018 at Signified, I was leading a lot of the the uh the
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:07
product work most focused on machine learning, modeling, making
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:12
sure that we're creating top-of-the-line models there.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:15
And I had the opportunity early this year to come over to Plaid
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:19
uh and help us continue building this incredible work that
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:23
Plaid has been doing over the last few years on building
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:27
really good identity and fraud products for the market.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:33
Pedro,
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:34
Yeah,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:34
Let's talk about foundation foundation models.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:37
Uh like to yeah, yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:39
Yeah that's that's the hippest term now in uh in fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:42
Let's start with the basics like what's foundation models?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
01:46
Uh how are they different from regular legacy machine learning models?
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:53
Cool. Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:54
The the way that I like to think about it like think
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Pedro Sanzovo
01:57
about the history of fraud prevention, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:00
Uh 10 maybe 15 years everyone was basically creating
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:03
those set of chained rules, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:06
Uh waterfalls that were basically making decisions.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:09
Um at some point the the industry realized that there
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:13
were a type of algorithmic approach namely XG boost.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:16
So the uh extreme gradient boosted uh random forests that allowed
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:20
for a lot more data to be encompassed into micro decisions that
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:25
ultimately resulted in better prediction with super low latency
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:29
and those became effectively the state-of-the-art in the
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:33
front end industry for the last 10 years at the very
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
02:48
They also look very much similar to rules,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
02:50
right, from an algorithmic perspective.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:52
Yes. Right. And they have the same downsides of rules.
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:55
What are the downsides of rules?
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Pedro Sanzovo
02:57
They on one hand they're very they're very labor some to build.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:00
There's a lot of feature engineering
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:03
that needs to go into it, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:05
Adapting the index, the features, yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:07
It's not self-learning.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:08
You need data scientists to actually be coding up the features,
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:11
understanding what the traffic is telling you.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:13
And then like whenever there's a change in behavior, you need to
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:16
put your data scientists, your fraud investigators should actually
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:19
understand like okay what the hell is happening here?
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:22
How can we codify that into a feature? Let's build that feature.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:25
Let's throw into the model. Let's train it offline.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:27
Let's move it online and then try to figure out
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:29
if it actually providing lift and precision.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:32
Um and it's also very very dependent on label
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:34
sets and very clear label sets, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:36
Supervised learning.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:37
Supervised learning. Exactly. Supervised learning.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:39
So you need to point the model to this is
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:41
the thing that I want you to predict.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:43
This is the thing that I don't want you to predict, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:46
And you need to keep those models
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
03:48
And that's very labor intense, right? That's not easy.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:51
Labor intensive.
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:52
It's very complicated, especially for smaller companies, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:56
Uh and then you get into this game that if you're
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Pedro Sanzovo
03:59
labeling things incorrectly, you're screwed.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:02
Trash in, trash out, right? It's a massive problem.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:05
What happened over the last let's say five years or so
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:09
is that um super super super smart people figured out
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:13
that there was different way of codifying information
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:16
that does not resemble those decision trees, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:19
And those are the transformer-based models.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:22
Fundamentally those transformer-based models is what is
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:26
backing the LLMs right that we all use uh to an extreme
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:30
now like ChatGPT, Anthropic, Claude all that jazz.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:33
And all it does to a certain extent is that it codifies
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:37
information as a sequence of inputs, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:40
And LLM's those are words or those are letters and then tries to
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:44
predict what is the next most likely output of that sequence.
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Pedro Sanzovo
04:48
Again for LLMs that's a word that's a letter
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:03
What what If we could do the same for fraud, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:05
What if we could do the same for financial data?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:09
Mhm.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:09
I I think that's the question that everyone started asking.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:12
It's like, okay, instead of codifying letters and words,
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:16
what if we codified financial information, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:19
So that is what well we at Plaid started doing and a
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:22
lot of players in the industry are doing as well.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:25
We're codifying financial information.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:28
And we're codifying our data as the sequence of events.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:31
And then we're creating those things called embeddings, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:35
Which ultimately are the inputs for the model
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:38
to try to figure out, okay, what is the next
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:41
Instead of these handcrafted features that you described before for
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
05:44
post, we have now embeddings that are created by the foundation model.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:48
And the beauty of this approach is that you rely less on
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:51
humanmade feature engineering and also label science.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:54
You still need to some labels.
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:56
You need to feed into it, but it doesn't need to be the same
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Pedro Sanzovo
05:59
degree of precision that actually boost models needed.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:02
What's the downside?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:03
There there are a few downsides and we're still
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:06
kind of learning how to use them, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:08
Uh but actually before we go to downsides, they're good.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:12
They're predictive, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:13
At least I think we we're seeing right
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:15
now an uplift in precision up to 34%.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:18
That's very much in line with what we're seeing.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:21
That's in line with what we're seeing in industry.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:23
Uh but again, I think what's important to keep in mind is
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:27
that the same problem that existed in actually boost trash
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:30
in trash out still exists to a certain extent.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:33
Interesting. How does trash look like for a foundation model?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:37
It's poor data, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:38
If your data is not clean, if the data quality is poor and on its
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:41
essence, the model is not going to be able to codify those sequences.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:45
So a simple example is one of the most interesting elements
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:49
of those foundational transform transformer based models
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:52
is uh the time based events and sequencing, right?
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
06:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
06:57
If you don't have a really good way to key those times and like
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:00
that's something that if anyone has ever worked with data, you
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:04
know that making sure that your time columns or time data assets
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:08
are precise and they're not getting funky with like time
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:11
zones and whatnot, it's easier said than done, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:14
And that problem still exists in transform models.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:17
So you need to make sure that that underlying data asset is
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:20
trustworthy, is rich, and then the algorithm is going to do its work, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:25
And it's going to do its magic.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:27
Uh but it doesn't solve for the foundational issue.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:30
And it sounds simple, but I think where where I've seen
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:33
organization kind of like get it wrong or get it messy
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:36
is exactly where you know like status has arrived.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:39
And you need to kind of like keep the time stamp of the status
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:42
or velocity attributes and like when did I actually see these
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
07:46
links or connections and when you don't have that.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:49
Totally.
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:49
And now it's interesting because those models they're able to absorb
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:53
a lot more data than actually boost trust or to an extent, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
07:57
It's like the whole kind of dynamic that we're seeing even on
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:00
the LLM is that the more compute that we put into it, the more
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:04
data that we put into it, the more precision it shows.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:07
In theory, that should be the same that we
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:09
should see in the financial ecosystem.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:11
The more data that we put into it, the more compute that we put
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:15
into it, the better precision we're going to see, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:18
But the problem is that data we don't have a 8:25 limitless
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:21
amount of good quality cleaned data, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:23
What we're learning is okay like we have our essential
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:26
set of that asset that is going to the model.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:29
Now let's bring this new that asset that we have
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:32
never been able to incompass an extra boost. Oh damn, okay.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:35
That that asset is not ready for it it needs to be cleaned it needs
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:39
to be treated it should like we need to start collecting it.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:42
Data that we weren't collecting before that
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:44
we weren't storing the right Hey. Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:46
Um, so there's there's again a lot of
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Pedro Sanzovo
08:48
foundational work to make that work.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:51
Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:52
And I think that, you know, to an extent it still is
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:55
the same problem that we had with again legacy. It's funny.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
08:59
It's funny to kind speak about like that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:02
with legacy machine learning models.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:04
Also there you cannot really train on fresh data without
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:08
auditing the data and making sure that it's it's
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:11
clean and the labels are clean and so on. Last question.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:15
Uh super new, like what two months maybe, but we now have Jev.
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Pedro Sanzovo
09:20
Yeah.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:21
Uh so you know we're kind of like we we are just getting our heads
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:24
wrapped around this concept of foundation models and now we have the
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:28
system one or decision models or whatever you want to call it, uh that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:32
you know work differently than uh than you know LLM and foundation models.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:37
Uh they are much more fit uh for a purpose in terms of
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:40
um you know like real time operations and so on.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:43
How do you see the play between you know we have like
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:46
machine learning models, we have foundation models
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:49
and we have now decision decision models.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
09:51
How do you see like the the scope here?
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Pedro Sanzovo
09:54
I mean it's you got to think about what are your target variables
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Pedro Sanzovo
09:58
in any exercise and what are your constraints?
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:00
For the world of fraud prevention, Generally what I'm
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:04
thinking about when I think about target variables,
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:07
I'm thinking about precision recall right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:10
I'm thinking about true positives, false positives,
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:13
the quadrants that we all know.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:15
What but I got to think about the constraints.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:18
And a big constraint is latency
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
10:20
Yes
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:21
Right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:21
So depending on the use case that you're facing latency
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:25
constraints are going to be wildly different.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:27
If you're trying to make like transaction transaction decisions for
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:31
credit cards for instance or debit cards, your latency budget is
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:35
very very minimum generally under 300 milliseconds or or or even lower.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:40
If you're doing onboarding or promo abuse, then
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:42
your latency constraints are way larger.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:45
So then you have a lot more room to play with. Okay.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:48
Optimizing the target variables.
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:50
And so the way that I think about it is if you have a
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:53
good data science team and a good data engineering team,
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:56
you're bound where where it's almost mandatory that
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Pedro Sanzovo
10:59
you need to explore the options out there. You need to do research.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:04
Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:05
And then you need to have clarity on what are
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:07
you actually trying to optimize for, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:10
Uh and honestly, I think the beauty of our of our industry
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:13
is that the data tells the truth ultimately.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:16
If you have a model that beats your precision with the same kind of
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:20
constraints and respecting the constraints in place, it wins.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:24
Yeah.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:25
Right. Then there's another, if I may,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:27
Go for it.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:28
There's another thing that gets me concerned about this
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:31
new age of modeling which is explainability, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:35
So like one of the things and XG boost never really solved that but
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
11:40
It's much easier with XG Boost.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:41
It's much easier, right? It's much easier.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:43
You can get a sense like humans can interact with
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:46
the outputs of those models in decent ways.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:48
It's much harder to do with trans with foundational
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:51
models for transformer based models and with Jev
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:54
I imagine that the constraint is the same. The problem is the same.
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:57
So, how can we walk that line?
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Pedro Sanzovo
11:59
And again, it depends a lot of the use case, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:02
If we're talking about risk, credit has a
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:04
regulatory mandate for explainability.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:07
Yes.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:08
That is very different from fraud.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:09
Yes.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:10
Right. So,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:11
And and I would add maybe to to close uh things off, I would
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:14
add that, you know, these embeddings, you know, they they
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:18
short like it's a shortcut to feature engineering.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:21
I don't need the talent. I don't need the effort.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:24
I don't need to handcraft it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:26
But I can also not really use them in rules.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:29
Yep. Exactly. So, so yeah,
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:32
So then you need to kind of like go through that
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
12:34
effort in order to to like write rules.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:36
Totally. And then it gets into I think you're totally right.
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:39
And that's well immediately I start thinking about agents, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:42
It's like okay, you know who can kind of understand some of those
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:46
embeddings but in the humans potentially agent, right?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:49
So like things that we're experimenting with is
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:52
okay can we feed agents embeddings and can they
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:54
transform some of those into rules, right? Can they find the gaps?
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Pedro Sanzovo
12:58
Uh and obviously you you still need a human in the loop to
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:01
try to figure out okay like is this actually good work.
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:04
But I think that's the direction that we need to explore
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:08
Yeah I mean folks uh things are not getting simpler
A close-up headshot of a young man with brown eyes, messy brown hair, and light stubble wearing a black t-shirt against a plain, light background.
Pedro Sanzovo
13:11
No
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:12
That's the bad news
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:13
They are getting more fun I think
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:14
The good news it's more fun, more options, more toys to play with.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:17
Pedro enjoyed it. We should uh do a proper sit down
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:20
Lets do it
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:21
In the podcast and enjoy the conference, man.
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Pedro Sanzovo
13:24
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Chen Zamir
Chen Zamir
13:26
See you next Saturday.